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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I agree with Nick that removing the default start-up times in the baseline seems inappropriate and that it should also be done in the proposed design if done
in the reference (when the baseline performance is based on <i>E<sub>t</sub></i>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I didn’t see any model attached so I couldn’t check but could it be possible the boiler size falls into the smaller category of table 6.8.1F where it’s efficiency
is defined as 80% AFUE? The comment of the reviewer would make much more sense if it was the case, since
<i>80% AFUE</i> is different from <i>80% E<sub>t</sub></i>. In my understanding, 80% AFUE refers to a global annual efficiency of 80% and 80% E<sub>t</sub> refers to 80% efficiency at peak load which would result in a global annual efficiency lower than 80%
when you consider part loads and boiler cycling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I would deem as correct the reviewer’s comment if the boiler size falls into the 80% AFUE category.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">“</span><span lang="EN">The AFUE differs from the true 'thermal efficiency' in that it is not a steady-state, peak measure of conversion efficiency, but instead
attempts to represent the actual, season-long, average efficiency of that piece of equipment, including the operating transients.</span><sup id="cite_ref-1"><span lang="EN" style="font-size:9.5pt">[1]
</span></sup><span lang="EN" style="font-size:9.5pt">“</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><span lang="EN" style="font-size:11.0pt">1<b>^</b></span></span><span lang="EN" style="font-size:11.0pt">
<span class="reference-text">Systems and Equipment volume of the <i>ASHRAE Handbook</i>, ASHRAE, Inc., Atlanta, GA, USA, 2004<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">However, if your boiler size falls into the
</span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">E<sub>t</sub></span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
</span><span lang="EN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">or
</span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">E<sub>c
</sub></span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><span lang="EN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">category then, as everyone else here, I find the comment somewhat strange.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#366092"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:#3F3F3F">Patrick</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:#366092"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:#3F3F3F">Lapierre</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7D7D7D">_ing.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:#366092"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#A5A5A5">plapierre@bpa.ca<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">De :</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>De la part de</b> ???<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> 24 mai 2015 20:42<br>
<b>À :</b> Daniel Knapp; Nicholas Caton<br>
<b>Cc :</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding<br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Equest-users] </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">回复：</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">回复：</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">RE: Reply</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,Dan<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The comment is a full version,no context missing!I also feel very strange with it.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow","sans-serif";color:#909090">------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#3366FF">Yongqing Zhao</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#006600">Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</span></strong><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#006600"><br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#3366FF">NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>
Telephone:13574805636</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#3366FF">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@126.com</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow","sans-serif"">------------------ </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">原始邮件</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow","sans-serif""> ------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">发件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "Daniel Knapp";<<a href="mailto:danielk@arborus.ca">danielk@arborus.ca</a>>;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">发送时间</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> 2015</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">年</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">5</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">月</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">25</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">日</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">(</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">星期一</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">)
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">凌晨</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">1:34<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">收件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "Nicholas Caton"<<a href="mailto:ncaton@catonenergy.com">ncaton@catonenergy.com</a>>;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">抄送</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">赵永青</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">"<<a href="mailto:zhaoyongqing1987@qq.com">zhaoyongqing1987@qq.com</a>>;
"Julien Marrec"<<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a>"<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">主题</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> Re: [Equest-users]
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">回复：</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">RE: Reply</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of
Ashrae 90.1-2007<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm with Nick. I find the GBCI reviewer comment as reported to be a bit strange and I wonder if there is some context missing. Is it possible that the seasonal efficiency was much lower than 80% in the baseline, suggesting either oversizing
of the baseline boilers or a curve that is different from the proposed curve? <o:p>
</o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dan<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">—<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my phone<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On May 24, 2015, at 11:38 AM, Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@catonenergy.com">ncaton@catonenergy.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I’m happy you are arriving at the same result, however to be clear I do not think the reviewer is correct to assert the prescribed efficiency is anything
other than the full-load efficiency.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Follow the cited Test Procedure CFR 431 led me to:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/10/431.86">https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/10/431.86</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:36.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<i><span style="font-size:11.0pt">“§ 431.86 (c) (3) (ii) Thermal Efficiency. Use the calculation procedure for the thermal efficiency test specified in Section 11.1 of the HI BTS-2000, Rev 06.07 (incorporated by reference, see§ 431.85).”</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I then found the referenced HI standard here (PDF link):
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Flaw.resource.org%2Fpub%2Fus%2Fcfr%2Fibr%2F004%2Fhi.BTS-2000.2007.pdf&ei=R-dhVZr3FoffoASKxYC4Bw&usg=AFQjCNGb2HahzcO_Q-BftBzCugY5sPtifg&sig2=k1fojL9GcpjnN6T2fdzOug">
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Flaw.resource.org%2Fpub%2Fus%2Fcfr%2Fibr%2F004%2Fhi.BTS-2000.2007.pdf&ei=R-dhVZr3FoffoASKxYC4Bw&usg=AFQjCNGb2HahzcO_Q-BftBzCugY5sPtifg&sig2=k1fojL9GcpjnN6T2fdzOug</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">In that standard, section 5 reads:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>5.0 TYPES OF TESTS</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">5.1
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Thermal Efficiency Test</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Shall consist of a test point conducted at 100% ± 2% of the nameplate boiler input. The test shall</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">yield a complete accounting of the energy input in terms of output and losses.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">5.2
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Combustion Efficiency Test</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Shall consist of a test point conducted at 100% ± 2% of the input to the boiler and shall yield an</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">accounting of energy input in terms of products of combustion only.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">From this, it is clear Et and Ec as prescribed by 90.1 are only the efficiencies as measured at full load. The test procedures following under section
9 deliberately exclude the effects of warmup/standby (equipment is made to warm up and arrive at the mandated operating conditions prior to measurements).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Section 11.1 of the standard prescribes all the calculations required, including Et = 100*Q</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt">OUT</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
/ Q</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt">IN</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> , however the preceding sections makes clear we are in no way standardizing part load performance or warmup/standby performance.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Rounding back to 90.1… section 6.4.1.1 further cements the notion (“packaged boilers” fall under 1992 EPACT):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><img border="0" width="398" height="337" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image002.png@01D096C2.9A59C2A0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">All this reinforces the point that 90.1 simply does not prescribe part load performance for baseline boilers. To perform a simulation in compliance
with Appendix G the onus is upon the energy modeler to make reasonable, defensible assumptions on that front. I don’t see how forcing full-load efficiencies at all part-load conditions and removing standby/startup operation energies is more reasonable or
reflects reality better than the defaults. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">If this is a new GBCI position they plan to hard-line on, then I would speculate it would be equally fair (albeit far more unrealistic for condensing
cases) to give your proposed boilers the same treatment… extra work for a step backwards from reality…?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thoughts?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<b>Owner</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br>
office: 785.410.3317</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#561782"><a href="http://www.catonenergy.com">www.catonenergy.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">冷面寒枪</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> [mailto:<a href="mailto:zhaoyongqing1987@qq.com">zhaoyongqing1987@qq.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 7:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton; Julien Marrec<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">回复：</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">RE: [Equest-users] Reply</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hi,Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> Than you for your insight!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> Except default curve and start up time, Min-Ratio also will result in discrepancy between annual equivalent HIR and nominal HIR. After I revised
curve ,set start-time and Min-Ratio to 0,and hourly report and PS-C report indicate that the annual equivalent HIR is accord with nominal HIR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Yongqing Zhao</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</span></strong><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>
Telephone:13574805636</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:Email%3Azhaoyongqing1987@126.com">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@126.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">------------------
</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">原始邮件</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> ------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:#EFEFEF">
<b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">发件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "Nicholas Caton";<<a href="mailto:ncaton@catonenergy.com">ncaton@catonenergy.com</a>>;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:#EFEFEF">
<b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">发送时间</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> 2015</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">年</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">5</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">月</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">24</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">日</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">(</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">星期天</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">)
</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">晚上</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">9:53</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:#EFEFEF">
<b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">收件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">赵永青</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">"<<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>>;
"Julien Marrec"<<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>>;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:#EFEFEF">
<b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">抄送</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a>"<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:#EFEFEF">
<b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">主题</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> RE: [Equest-users] Reply</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">
The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I received some similar review language very recently suggesting 80% efficiency is expected at all/most part load conditions for the baseline boiler…. Similar context in that case
with the boiler rarely operating near full load.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">My comment has other issues that would cloud the topic at-hand, but here is truncated version:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
“…Furthermore, the average boiler efficiencies in the Baseline PS-C output reports, calculated by dividing the boiler energy consumption by the annual boiler heating energy generated was… [approximately 5% lower than the nominal efficiency input & documented].
Revise the baseline boiler efficiency to 80% and revise the boiler curve for the Baseline case as necessary to have an average efficiency that is near 80%. Provide updated PS-C reports for the Baseline confirming that the average baseline efficiency is near
80%.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">This is the first time I have run into commentary checking up on PS-C’s output at all, and I’m using the same library curves as always for typical baseline boilers.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I believe the PS-C discrepancy is explained both by the non-flat library curve and by the boiler’s default start-up loads, in combination.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Here is the default library curve – it is (roughly, but not quite) linear:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><image002.png><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><image003.png><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[For those unfamiliar, the Y-axis is a unitless multiplier]
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">If I’m not mistaken, this curve serves double-duty: it simultaneously applies the hourly PLR to the full capacity (as either input or auto-sized) and also accounts for increased
HIR (lower efficiency) as the PLR drops. My understanding in equation form:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Energy Consumed (for the hour) = (Boiler full capacity as input/autosized) * (Boiler nominal HIR input @ full load) * HIRf(PLR)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">If all of that is true, a perfectly “flat efficiency” curve, returning your nominal input HIR at all efficiencies, would therefore be Z = X. That’s plotted above for reference
with a light/thin line. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Even with such a “flat efficiency” curve applied to a test-case, PS-C’s outputs still suggest an annual equivalent HIR higher than the nominal input. Zeroing out the startup/standby
inputs as well is required to get PS-C to report your nominal HIR = annual fuel / annual load:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><img border="0" width="585" height="179" id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image003.png@01D096C2.9A59C2A0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I think the correct response (which perhaps I’ve mostly composed above) is to demonstrate the causes (library curve shape, startup/standby defaults), and to assert these are all
appropriately applied to the baseline boiler, though <u>none of this is regulated by 90.1</u> to the best of my knowledge so it might be relatively shaky territory. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I would wager 90% of all eQuest baseline boilers submitted to GBCI to date probably don’t mess with the library curves or standby/startup inputs, but that’s pure speculation on
my part.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Has anybody ever tried to explain/justify the default boiler curve and default startup/standby inputs? Do we know where those defaults come from?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>NICK CATON, P.E.</b><br>
<b>Owner</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Caton Energy Consulting</b><br>
1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br>
office: 785.410.3317<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#561782"><a href="http://www.catonenergy.com/">www.catonenergy.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>???<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 5:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Julien Marrec<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Reply<span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span> The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hi,<span class="grn">Julien
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I understand his meaning is keep a constant efficiency and I know the flat efficiency in equest is a curve that is y=x, but I can't confirm if a constant efficiency is Ashrae 90.1-2007's
original intent.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><strong>Yongqing Zhao</strong><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><strong>Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</strong><b><br>
</b>NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>
Telephone:13574805636<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="mailto:Email%3Azhaoyongqing1987@126.com">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@126.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">------------------
<span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">原始邮件</span> ------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">发件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "Julien Marrec";<<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>>;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">发送时间</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> 2015</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">年</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">5</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">月</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">24</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">日</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">(</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">星期天</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">)
</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">晚上</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">8:19</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">收件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">赵永青</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">"<<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>>;
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<b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">抄送</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a>"<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>;
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<b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">主题</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> Re: [Equest-users] The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hey,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">He's saying that you need to make sure that the curve boiler-fPLR gives you a constant efficiency. As far as I remember, the default atmospheric curve from equest is like this.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Don't be confused by "flat". A flat efficiency curve is when you plot efficiency=f(PLR). In equest, it should be a curve that is y=x<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Look at the curve you used.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Julien<o:p></o:p></p>
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Envoyé de mon iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
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Le 24 mai 2015 à 11:27, "<span lang="JA" style="font-family:SimSun">赵永青</span>" <<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>> a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I get the energy model comments from LEED reviewer as following:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The narrative response indicates that the Baseline boiler has been modeled utilizing operating performance curves and a boiler HIR of 1.25. However, since the boiler operation HIR
is based on the performance curves, the HIR is less than 1.25 in the part-load condition, which is inappropriate. Revise the Baseline boilers to include a flat efficiency of 80% for all part-loads. Provide eQuest input files or screen shots verifying the boiler
efficiency has been modeled as required.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <<a href="mailto:545E22AD@FA528147.9F996155">545E22AD@FA528147.9F996155</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">However, I can not understand it very much. The minimum equipment efficiency requirement(80 % Et) of Ashrae 90.1-2007 should be base on full load condition.Why the LEED reviewer
raise such a question?Any insight is appreciate!!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><strong>Yongqing Zhao</strong><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><strong>Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</strong><b><br>
</b>NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>
Telephone:13574805636<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@<a href="http://126.com/">126.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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