<br><br/><div style="font-size:12px;padding:2px 0;">---原始邮件---</div><div style="font-size:12px;background:#f0f0f0;color:#212121;padding:8px!important;border-radius:4px;line-height:1.5;"><div><b>发件人:</b> "Nicholas Caton"<ncaton@catonenergy.com></div><div><b>发送时间:</b> 2015年05月24日 21:53:33</div><div><b>收件人:</b> "赵永青"<503271081@qq.com>;"Julien Marrec"<julien.marrec@gmail.com>;</div><div><b>抄送:</b> "equest-users@lists.onebuilding"<equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org>;</div><div><b>主题:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Reply： The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</div></div><br/><style></style><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">I received some similar review language very recently suggesting 80% efficiency is expected at all/most part load conditions for the baseline boiler….  Similar context in that case with the boiler rarely operating near full load.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">My comment has other issues that would cloud the topic at-hand, but here is  truncated version:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">“…Furthermore, the average boiler efficiencies in the Baseline PS-C output reports, calculated by dividing the boiler energy consumption by the annual boiler heating energy generated was… [approximately 5% lower than the nominal efficiency input & documented].  Revise the baseline boiler efficiency to 80% and revise the boiler curve for the Baseline case as necessary to have an average efficiency that is near 80%. Provide updated PS-C reports for the Baseline confirming that the average baseline efficiency is near 80%.”</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">This is the first time I have run into commentary checking up on PS-C’s output at all, and I’m using the same library curves as always for typical baseline boilers.   </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">I believe the PS-C discrepancy is explained both by the non-flat library curve and by the boiler’s default start-up loads, in combination.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">Here is the default library curve – it is (roughly, but not quite) linear:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><img height="187" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:877A3FAA@4A43BD6C.FAE46155" width="533"/><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "><img height="264" id="Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:C50A6B53@1F698870.FAE46155" width="468"/></span><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">[For those unfamiliar, the Y-axis is a unitless multiplier] </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">If I’m not mistaken, this curve serves double-duty:  it simultaneously applies the hourly PLR to the full capacity (as either input or auto-sized) and also accounts for increased HIR (lower efficiency) as the PLR drops.  My understanding in equation form:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">Energy Consumed (for the hour) = (Boiler full capacity as input/autosized) * (Boiler nominal HIR input @ full load) * HIRf(PLR)</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">If all of that is true, a perfectly “flat efficiency” curve, returning your nominal input HIR at all efficiencies, would therefore be Z = X.  That’s plotted above for reference with a light/thin line.  </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">Even with such a “flat efficiency” curve applied to a test-case, PS-C’s outputs still suggest an annual equivalent HIR higher than the nominal input.  Zeroing out the startup/standby inputs as well is required to get PS-C to report your nominal HIR = annual fuel / annual load:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><img height="179" id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:ED87DEFA@792ACF7A.FAE46155" width="585"/><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">I think the correct response (which perhaps I’ve mostly composed above) is to demonstrate the causes (library curve shape, startup/standby defaults), and to assert these are all appropriately applied to the baseline boiler, though <u>none of this is regulated by 90.1</u> to the best of my knowledge so it might be relatively shaky territory.  </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">I would wager 90% of all eQuest baseline boilers submitted to GBCI to date probably don’t mess with the library curves or standby/startup inputs, but that’s pure speculation on my part.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">Has anybody ever tried to explain/justify the default boiler curve and default startup/standby inputs?  Do we know where those defaults come from?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style=" font-size:14.0pt ; ; ; ">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "><br/></span><b><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; ">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; "><br/></span><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">  1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">  Shoreline, WA 98133<br/>  office:  785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; "><a><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ; "> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; ">From:</span></b><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; "> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>???<br/><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 5:34 AM<br/><b>To:</b> Julien Marrec<br/><b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding<br/><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Reply</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span style=" font-size:11.0pt ; ; "> The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<span class="grn"><span style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ; ">Julien </span></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">I understand his meaning is keep a constant efficiency and I know the flat efficiency in equest is a curve that is y=x, but I can't  confirm if a constant efficiency is Ashrae 90.1-2007's original intent.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ; ">------------------</span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">Yongqing Zhao</span></strong><span style=" font-size:10.5pt ; ; ; "></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</span></strong><b><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; "><br/></span></b><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br/>Telephone:13574805636</span><span style=" font-size:10.5pt ; ; ; "></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; "><a href="mailto:Email%3Azhaoyongqing1987@126.com">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@126.com</a></span><span style=" font-size:10.5pt ; ; ; "></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">         <a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a></span><span style=" font-size:10.5pt ; ; ; "> </span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">------------------ </span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">原始</span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">邮</span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">件</span><span style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; "> ------------------</span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">发</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "Julien Marrec";<<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>>;</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">发</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">送</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">时间</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> 2015</span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">年</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">5</span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">月</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">24</span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">日</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">(</span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">星期天</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">) </span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">晚上</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">8:19</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">收件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "</span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">赵</span><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">永青</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">"<<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>>; </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">抄送</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a>"<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>; </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">主</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ">题</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> Re: [Equest-users] The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hey,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">He's saying that you need to make sure that the curve boiler-fPLR gives you a constant efficiency. As far as I remember, the default atmospheric curve from equest is like this.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Don't be confused by "flat". A flat efficiency curve is when you plot efficiency=f(PLR). In equest, it should be a curve that is y=x</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Look at the curve you used.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Julien</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br/>Envoyé de mon iPhone</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br/>Le 24 mai 2015 à 11:27, "<span lang="JA" style=" ; ">赵</span><span lang="JA" style=" ; ">永青</span>" <<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>> a écrit :</p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I get the energy model comments from LEED reviewer as following:</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">The narrative response indicates that the Baseline boiler has been modeled utilizing operating performance curves and a boiler HIR of 1.25. However, since the boiler operation HIR is based on the performance curves, the HIR is less than 1.25 in the part-load condition, which is inappropriate. Revise the Baseline boilers to include a flat efficiency of 80% for all part-loads. Provide eQuest input files or screen shots verifying the boiler efficiency has been modeled as required.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; "> </span><<a href="mailto:545E22AD@FA528147.9F996155">545E22AD@FA528147.9F996155</a>></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">However, I can not understand it very much. The minimum equipment efficiency requirement(80 % Et) of Ashrae 90.1-2007 should be base on full load condition.Why the LEED reviewer raise such a question?Any insight is appreciate!!</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">Thanks</span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:9.0pt ; ; ; ">------------------</span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">Yongqing Zhao</span></strong><span style=" font-size:10.5pt ; ; ; "></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</span></strong><b><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; "><br/></span></b><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br/>Telephone:13574805636</span><span style=" font-size:10.5pt ; ; ; "></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@<a href="http://126.com">126.com</a></span><span style=" font-size:10.5pt ; ; ; "></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style=" font-size:10.0pt ; ; ; ">         <a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a></span><span style=" font-size:10.5pt ; ; ; "> </span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br/>Equest-users mailing list<br/><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br/>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div>