<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=gb2312"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Arial Narrow";
panose-1:2 11 6 6 2 2 2 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Microsoft YaHei";
panose-1:2 11 5 3 2 2 4 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei";
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@Microsoft YaHei";
panose-1:2 11 5 3 2 2 4 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@Microsoft JhengHei";
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.grn
{mso-style-name:grn;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I received some similar review language very recently suggesting 80% efficiency is expected at all/most part load conditions for the baseline boiler…. Similar context in that case with the boiler rarely operating near full load.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">My comment has other issues that would cloud the topic at-hand, but here is truncated version:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">“…Furthermore, the average boiler efficiencies in the Baseline PS-C output reports, calculated by dividing the boiler energy consumption by the annual boiler heating energy generated was… [approximately 5% lower than the nominal efficiency input & documented]. Revise the baseline boiler efficiency to 80% and revise the boiler curve for the Baseline case as necessary to have an average efficiency that is near 80%. Provide updated PS-C reports for the Baseline confirming that the average baseline efficiency is near 80%.”</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This is the first time I have run into commentary checking up on PS-C’s output at all, and I’m using the same library curves as always for typical baseline boilers. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I believe the PS-C discrepancy is explained both by the non-flat library curve and by the boiler’s default start-up loads, in combination.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Here is the default library curve – it is (roughly, but not quite) linear:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><img width="533" height="187" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D095E4.FC372960"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><img width="468" height="264" id="Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image002.png@01D095EE.52E0BE80"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[For those unfamiliar, the Y-axis is a unitless multiplier] </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">If I’m not mistaken, this curve serves double-duty: it simultaneously applies the hourly PLR to the full capacity (as either input or auto-sized) and also accounts for increased HIR (lower efficiency) as the PLR drops. My understanding in equation form:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Energy Consumed (for the hour) = (Boiler full capacity as input/autosized) * (Boiler nominal HIR input @ full load) * HIRf(PLR)</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">If all of that is true, a perfectly “flat efficiency” curve, returning your nominal input HIR at all efficiencies, would therefore be Z = X. That’s plotted above for reference with a light/thin line. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Even with such a “flat efficiency” curve applied to a test-case, PS-C’s outputs still suggest an annual equivalent HIR higher than the nominal input. Zeroing out the startup/standby inputs as well is required to get PS-C to report your nominal HIR = annual fuel / annual load:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><img width="585" height="179" id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image005.png@01D095EC.DB1BD840"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the correct response (which perhaps I’ve mostly composed above) is to demonstrate the causes (library curve shape, startup/standby defaults), and to assert these are all appropriately applied to the baseline boiler, though <u>none of this is regulated by 90.1</u> to the best of my knowledge so it might be relatively shaky territory. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I would wager 90% of all eQuest baseline boilers submitted to GBCI to date probably don’t mess with the library curves or standby/startup inputs, but that’s pure speculation on my part.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Has anybody ever tried to explain/justify the default boiler curve and default startup/standby inputs? Do we know where those defaults come from?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><br></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br> office: 785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>???<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 5:34 AM<br><b>To:</b> Julien Marrec<br><b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding<br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Reply</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<span class="grn"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;background:#eff5fb">Julien </span></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I understand his meaning is keep a constant efficiency and I know the flat efficiency in equest is a curve that is y=x, but I can't confirm if a constant efficiency is Ashrae 90.1-2007's original intent.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif;color:#909090">------------------</span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#3366ff">Yongqing Zhao</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#006600">Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</span></strong><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#006600"><br></span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#3366ff">NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>Telephone:13574805636</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#3366ff"><a href="mailto:Email%3Azhaoyongqing1987@126.com">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@126.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">------------------ </span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">原始</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">邮</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">件</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif"> ------------------</span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">发</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "Julien Marrec";<<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>>;</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">发</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">送</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">时间</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> 2015</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">年</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">5</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">月</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">24</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">日</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">(</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">星期天</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">) </span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">晚上</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">8:19</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">收件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">赵</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">永青</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">"<<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>>; </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">抄送</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a>"<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>; </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#efefef"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">主</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho"">题</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> Re: [Equest-users] The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hey,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">He's saying that you need to make sure that the curve boiler-fPLR gives you a constant efficiency. As far as I remember, the default atmospheric curve from equest is like this.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Don't be confused by "flat". A flat efficiency curve is when you plot efficiency=f(PLR). In equest, it should be a curve that is y=x</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Look at the curve you used.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Julien</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Envoyé de mon iPhone</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>Le 24 mai 2015 à 11:27, "<span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">赵</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">永青</span>" <<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>> a écrit :</p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I get the energy model comments from LEED reviewer as following:</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei",sans-serif;background:#ffedc4">The narrative response indicates that the Baseline boiler has been modeled utilizing operating performance curves and a boiler HIR of 1.25. However, since the boiler operation HIR is based on the performance curves, the HIR is less than 1.25 in the part-load condition, which is inappropriate. Revise the Baseline boilers to include a flat efficiency of 80% for all part-loads. Provide eQuest input files or screen shots verifying the boiler efficiency has been modeled as required.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei",sans-serif;background:#ffedc4"> </span><<a href="mailto:545E22AD@FA528147.9F996155">545E22AD@FA528147.9F996155</a>></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei",sans-serif;background:#ffedc4">However, I can not understand it very much. The minimum equipment efficiency requirement(80 % Et) of Ashrae 90.1-2007 should be base on full load condition.Why the LEED reviewer raise such a question?Any insight is appreciate!!</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei",sans-serif;background:#ffedc4">Thanks</span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif;color:#909090">------------------</span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#3366ff">Yongqing Zhao</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#006600">Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</span></strong><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#006600"><br></span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#3366ff">NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>Telephone:13574805636</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#3366ff">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@<a href="http://126.com">126.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>Equest-users mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></body></html>