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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Morteza and Tim,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Attached is a nice article from ASHRAE Journal discussing HVAC system selection for envelope-dominated buildings. It compares modeled performance of VRF, GSHP, boiler+chiller, and WSHP in a generic 9-story multifamily building in a variety of climates, and concludes that WSHP is the worst option. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Maria<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#666666'>Maria Karpman </span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#666666'>LEED AP, BEMP, CEM</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#666666'>________________</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#666666'>Karpman Consulting<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#666666'><a href="http://www.karpmanconsulting.net/"><span style='color:blue'>www.karpmanconsulting.net</span></a> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#666666'>Phone </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#666666;background:white'>860.430.1909 </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#666666'>41C New London Turnpike</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#666666'>Glastonbury, CT 06033</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tim Johnson<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2015 11:26 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Morteza Kasmai'; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Morteza,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I took a quick look at your models and the one thing that sticks out to me is your pump energy. The difference between PTAC and WSHP is huge. I would expect some difference since the WSHP needs to run the pumps in cooling mode as well as heating while the PTAC only needs pumps in heating, but the difference in energy seems too big. Also keep in mind that the heating and cooling efficiencies of the WSHPs are only for that piece of equipment, they don’t include the heat rejection required in cooling mode, the boiler input in heating mode, or the pumps. For those reasons, I wouldn’t expect the WSHP system to be a lot more efficient than the PTAC.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Tim<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-element-top:.05pt;mso-height-rule:exactly'><table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 hspace=0 vspace=0 align=left><tr><td valign=top align=left style='padding-top:0in;padding-right:2.25pt;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:2.25pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-element-top:.05pt;mso-height-rule:exactly'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:maroon'>Tim Johnson</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-element-top:.05pt;mso-height-rule:exactly'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>Mechanical Engineer</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-element-top:.05pt;mso-height-rule:exactly'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>o 208.336.4900 | d 208.577.5645</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-element-top:.05pt;mso-height-rule:exactly'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img border=0 width=225 height=72 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D087F1.CE8D76F0" alt="CTA_email_graphic"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-element-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-element-top:.05pt;mso-height-rule:exactly'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></td></tr></table></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Morteza Kasmai<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2015 7:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>Dear eQUEST experts,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>I am still struggling to find out the main reason(s) for high-energy consumption of WLHP system comparing to PTAC system and what can be done to make this system more efficient that the baseline system. In other words for complying with EAp2 requirements, for a mid rise residential building what types of HVAC systems (other than split system HP) can be selected which consume less annual energy than the PTAC. </span><br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>I would appreciate it if you would share your experience on this and make some recommendation.</span><br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>Morteza</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in'><img border=0 width=100 height=100 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:~WRD000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 4:03 PM, <<a href="mailto:equest-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Send Equest-users mailing list submissions to<br> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a href="mailto:equest-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a href="mailto:equest-users-owner@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-owner@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Equest-users digest..."<br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption (Morteza Kasmai)<br> 2. Re: PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption (David Reddy)<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Morteza Kasmai <<a href="mailto:morteza.kasmai@gmail.com">morteza.kasmai@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>Cc: <br>Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 12:04:23 -0400<br>Subject: [Equest-users] PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'><br>This is a multifamily mid-rise building, 9 floors above grade. Per ASHRAE Table G3.1.1A the Baseline HVAC system is system 1 (PTAC with hot-water fossil fuel boiler) 9.3 to 11 EER. <br>Selected HVAC system for the proposed design is WLHP (3 Ton High efficiency HP by Daikin, 15.9 EER and 4.83 COP) with 2 cell cooling tower, DOAS unit (9.8 EER) and 2 Boilers (0.92 Eff.).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>Although the efficiency of the selected HVAC systems is much higher than the efficiency of the baseline model, the simulation results indicate annual energy consumption of the proposed design is much higher than the baseline! </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>Am I missing something or did something wrong in the models? Please see the attached files of the both models</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>I would greatly appreciate it if anyone kindly gives some feedback on this,<br><br> Morteza</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in'><img border=0 width=100 height=100 id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:~WRD000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: David Reddy <<a href="mailto:david@360-analytics.com">david@360-analytics.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>Cc: <br>Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 09:39:44 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi Morteza,<br>I have not reviewed the results or detailed inputs of your model, but one thing to be aware is that depending on the rating conditions of your efficiency data, you may have to adjust the EIRs to be consistent with DOE-2 performance curves. The default DOE-2 curves are normalized to the GSHP rating condition, so if using these and if your efficiency data is @ the WSHP rating condition, you will need to apply these adjustments.<br><br>Here is the table from the DOE-2 help provided with eQUEST. There is a library of DOE-2 WSHP curves available from ClimateMaster that do not need these adjustments.<br><br><img border=0 width=733 height=162 id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image002.jpg@01D087F1.CE8D76F0"><br><br>- David<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 5/4/2015 9:04 AM, Morteza Kasmai wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'><br>This is a multifamily mid-rise building, 9 floors above grade. Per ASHRAE Table G3.1.1A the Baseline HVAC system is system 1 (PTAC with hot-water fossil fuel boiler) 9.3 to 11 EER. <br>Selected HVAC system for the proposed design is WLHP (3 Ton High efficiency HP by Daikin, 15.9 EER and 4.83 COP) with 2 cell cooling tower, DOAS unit (9.8 EER) and 2 Boilers (0.92 Eff.).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>Although the efficiency of the selected HVAC systems is much higher than the efficiency of the baseline model, the simulation results indicate annual energy consumption of the proposed design is much higher than the baseline! </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>Am I missing something or did something wrong in the models? Please see the attached files of the both models</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13'>I would greatly appreciate it if anyone kindly gives some feedback on this,<br><br> Morteza</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in'><img border=0 width=100 height=100 id="_x0000_i1028" src="cid:~WRD000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Equest-users mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:#A0A0A0' align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4311/9694 - Release Date: 05/04/15<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>