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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Some of the advantages of a WLHP system are related to maintenance and service life compared to systems with air-cooled condensers and requiring envelope penetrations.
These concerns won’t show up in an ASHRAE 90.1 appendix G energy analysis. (Higher infiltration from PTACs?) Also I’d expect some efficiencies of scale from central equipment if your building is large, compared to the PTACs, this may not apply here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But regarding your EAP2 questions…</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">WLHP offers an energy savings when
parts of the building are in heating while others are in cooling – depending on your building’s form and location, as well as modeling assumptions about setpoints, this may not be taking place. For a residential building it might be reasonable to assume that
some portion of the residential units are set to different temperature ranges. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Conversely, if your location is cooling dominated all year, some of the advantages of WLHP go away. One thing to check here is the end-use demand components
in your model. Is the WLHP using less at full load than the air-cooled system? If so, then you need to investigate the modeling assumptions about the controls of the WLHP system when operating at part load. Make sure that what you gained in peak efficinecy
isn’t given back when the system is only partially loaded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Verify that the WLHP control for the condenser loop is variable flow (if the proposed heat pump units have two-way control valves…if not, talk to your engineer
about that!) and that there is a an adequate temperature range for the loop so that the towers and boilers don’t come on immediately. WLHP condenser loop which should be in the range where a condensing boiler will operate successfully, verify that the proposed
case takes advantage of this compared to the baseline. Make sure that the condenser loop is operating on call for demand so that the model isn’t assuming continuous operation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regarding the DOAS, make sure that the baseline system has the same OA requirements at the PTAC units. Lastly, verify that the fan power for the WLHP units
is entered based on the design pressure drop and not eQUEST defaults. Double-check that the fan run-times for the equipment are the same…which for LEED would be fans operating continuously. You probably have this in place already.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I see an interesting paper forwarded by Maria came through while I was typing. Note that the graphics in Figure 1 and Figure 2 are for CO2 emissions, and have
non-zero axes, so there could be some variance for your specific case depending on the relative cost of utilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It is very interesting – if we take a proposed high-efficiency WLHP system from Figure 2 in Atlanta producing about 625 MTCDE compared to the Figure 1 ASHRAE
90.1 baseline air-source heat pump it is just under 650 MTCDE. In your case, by adding the DOAS and some other efficiencies and depending on your specific utility rates, it should be possible for a high-tech WLHP system to at least reach equivalency with PTACs
if not surpass it. Additional savings should result if you are able to add efficiency from upgraded envelope, lighting, and DHW measures in the proposed design. Check the LS reports to verify that building heating and cooling loads are reduced in the proposed
case compared to the baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#244061">Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tim Johnson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2015 10:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Morteza Kasmai'; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Morteza,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I took a quick look at your models and the one thing that sticks out to me is your pump energy. The difference between PTAC and WSHP is huge. I would expect some difference
since the WSHP needs to run the pumps in cooling mode as well as heating while the PTAC only needs pumps in heating, but the difference in energy seems too big. Also keep in mind that the heating and cooling efficiencies of the WSHPs are only for that piece
of equipment, they don’t include the heat rejection required in cooling mode, the boiler input in heating mode, or the pumps. For those reasons, I wouldn’t expect the WSHP system to be a lot more efficient than the PTAC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Tim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:maroon">Tim Johnson</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Mechanical Engineer</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">o 208.336.4900 | d 208.577.5645</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Equest-users [</span><a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Morteza Kasmai<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 06, 2015 7:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">Dear eQUEST experts,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">I am still struggling to find out the main reason(s) for high-energy consumption of WLHP system comparing to PTAC system and what can be done to make this system more efficient that
the baseline system. In other words for complying with EAp2 requirements, for a mid rise residential building what types of HVAC systems (other than split system HP) can be selected which consume less annual energy than the PTAC.
</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">I would appreciate it if you would share your experience on this and make some recommendation.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">Morteza</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 4:03 PM, <<a href="mailto:equest-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption (Morteza Kasmai)<br>
2. Re: PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption (David Reddy)<br>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Morteza Kasmai <<a href="mailto:morteza.kasmai@gmail.com">morteza.kasmai@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 12:04:23 -0400<br>
Subject: [Equest-users] PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13"><br>
This is a multifamily mid-rise building, 9 floors above grade. Per ASHRAE Table G3.1.1A the Baseline HVAC system is system 1 (PTAC with hot-water fossil fuel boiler) 9.3 to 11 EER.
<br>
Selected HVAC system for the proposed design is WLHP (3 Ton High efficiency HP by Daikin, 15.9 EER and 4.83 COP) with 2 cell cooling tower, DOAS unit (9.8 EER) and 2 Boilers (0.92 Eff.).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">Although the efficiency of the selected HVAC systems is much higher than the efficiency of the baseline model, the simulation results indicate annual energy consumption of the proposed
design is much higher than the baseline! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">Am I missing something or did something wrong in the models? Please see the attached files of the both models</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">I would greatly appreciate it if anyone kindly gives some feedback on this,<br>
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Morteza</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: David Reddy <<a href="mailto:david@360-analytics.com">david@360-analytics.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Cc: <br>
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 09:39:44 -0700<br>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] PTAC vs WLHP Annual Energy Consumption<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Morteza,<br>
I have not reviewed the results or detailed inputs of your model, but one thing to be aware is that depending on the rating conditions of your efficiency data, you may have to adjust the EIRs to be consistent with DOE-2 performance curves. The default DOE-2
curves are normalized to the GSHP rating condition, so if using these and if your efficiency data is @ the WSHP rating condition, you will need to apply these adjustments.<br>
<br>
Here is the table from the DOE-2 help provided with eQUEST. There is a library of DOE-2 WSHP curves available from ClimateMaster that do not need these adjustments.<br>
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<img border="0" width="733" height="162" id="Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image002.jpg@01D087E7.BEE13610" alt="cid:image002.jpg@01D087E7.BEE13610"><br>
<br>
- David<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 5/4/2015 9:04 AM, Morteza Kasmai wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13"><br>
This is a multifamily mid-rise building, 9 floors above grade. Per ASHRAE Table G3.1.1A the Baseline HVAC system is system 1 (PTAC with hot-water fossil fuel boiler) 9.3 to 11 EER.
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Selected HVAC system for the proposed design is WLHP (3 Ton High efficiency HP by Daikin, 15.9 EER and 4.83 COP) with 2 cell cooling tower, DOAS unit (9.8 EER) and 2 Boilers (0.92 Eff.).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">Although the efficiency of the selected HVAC systems is much higher than the efficiency of the baseline model, the simulation results indicate annual energy consumption of the proposed
design is much higher than the baseline! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">Am I missing something or did something wrong in the models? Please see the attached files of the both models</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#274E13">I would greatly appreciate it if anyone kindly gives some feedback on this,<br>
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Morteza</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="32" height="32" id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Uuukta80GuFfvKouzA0mdSvUXqml7MtSwSiw-evuGMU=w147-h43-p-no" alt="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Uuukta80GuFfvKouzA0mdSvUXqml7MtSwSiw-evuGMU=w147-h43-p-no"><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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