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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">After seeing Nick’s comment I thought I would add my 2 cents just being in Alaska and constantly dealing with insulation issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The winter obviously puts high demands for heating and ventilation and I think every building we’ve upgraded for energy efficiency has seen substantial improvements
in energy savings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But many of our clients insist on “more insulation is better” in arctic conditions without really understanding the effects over an entire year.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">On some projects I’ve seen R-80+ systems with 18” wall buildups. Not to mention R80-90+ roof buildups (14”-16” thick) which obviously improve the overall
heating performance – especially given our heating systems are typically operating more than 6 months out of the year.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But there is a tradeoff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We typically get around 4-1/2 months of 60-90 degree weather up here. This puts a high demand on cooling systems during this period. You can easily end up
with a building so heavily insulated that even in the mid 60’s outside temp range the cooling system may need to operate unless all the doors and windows were opened up– which isn’t always possible because of security reasons.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The buildings become too efficient at retaining heat to the degree that the cooling demand is higher to basically fight the building during summer months to
maintain temp setpoints.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also, Many buildings in Alaska do not have cooling systems so when you increase R-value and U-value to a certain threshold you are in some ways “biting the
bullet” with regard to adding appropriate ventilation and cooling systems capable of cancelling out the heat buildup in warmer weather (which offsets X dollar amount of energy savings provided during the winter months).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Fortunately, the end result in Alaska is usually a net cost savings just because heating costs in Alaska are so ridiculously high given most buildings use fuel-oil.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">However, in theory, if you were to cut the cost of heating up here to a certain threshold the cost of cooling the building would eventually be higher than the
cost of heating it in the winter months. At which point I imagine someone doing the classic face-palm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Joe Huang; Daniel Knapp; Mayank Bhatnagar<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Expert advice on Wall Insulation study in eQuest<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Great discussion!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Since this thread has clearly gathered attentions of the right individuals, I’d like to layer on a query which may further inform Mayank’s efforts:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is the “law of diminishing returns” as you improve envelope insulation universal to ALL climates, in practice or in theory? While I have reliably observed
such behavior exploring comparable ECM’s in temperate climates, I am curious whether tropical or arctic climates should expect (all else being equal) a relatively “flatter” curve when plotting R-value against annual energy savings?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My gut tells me the reduced opportunity to leverage airside economizer function or operable windows would make incremental insulation increases more attractive
for annual energy consumption, but experience has taught me to question my gut on such matters (…Thanks Joe!).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782">Owner</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br>
office: 785.410.3317</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joe Huang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daniel Knapp; Mayank Bhatnagar<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Expert advice on Wall Insulation study in eQuest</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dan,<br>
<br>
Very good point! I didn't even think about this, i.e., that the plot was against conductance and not resistance.
<br>
Therefore, I would conclude that eQUEST is behaving properly.<br>
<br>
Joe<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Joe Huang<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>White Box Technologies, Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Moraga CA 94556<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(o) (925)388-0265<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(c) (510)928-2683<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>"building energy simulations at your fingertips"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 4/27/2015 11:12 AM, Daniel Knapp wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Mayank, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think on further reflection you are seeing exactly what you should be seeing. The energy consumption should go down linearly with the U-value. What does saturate is the energy savings compared to insulation thickness or R-value which
is plotted as 1/U. Here is a graph of energy vs. U and energy vs R for your building:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All the best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dan<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="663" height="244" id="BF92CB2A-C210-4A66-AC36-237F522B1795" src="cid:image001.png@01D081AE.2FE7D700"><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">—<br>
Daniel Knapp, PhD, PPhys, LEED® AP O+M<br>
<a href="mailto:danielk@arborus.ca">danielk@arborus.ca</a><br>
<br>
Arborus Consulting<br>
Energy Strategies for the Built Environment<br>
<a href="http://www.arborus.ca">www.arborus.ca</a><br>
76 Chamberlain Avenue <br>
Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9 <br>
Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113<br>
Fax: (613) 234-0740<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">On Apr 27, 2015, at 6:15 AM, Mayank Bhatnagar <<a href="mailto:mayank.23aug@gmail.com">mayank.23aug@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Thank you Joe and Daniel for your response.<br>
<br>
As you suggested, I checked LS-C report for wall conduction variation w.r.t. U-value. It is also giving linear trend for wall conduction. Additionally, I have done same analysis for without internal loads (occupancy, lighting and equipment load) as Joe indicated
about the compounding effect. I still get linear trend between the energy consumption and U-value. <br>
<br>
For your reference, I am attaching inp, pd2 and weather file.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Joe Huang <<a href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>> wrote:<br>
Mayank, Daniel,<br>
<br>
I think it's a good idea to look at the component loads in the LS-C reports, but I want to add some words of caution.<br>
The loads (actually heat flows) shown in those reports are calculated at the constant Reference Temperature, and categorized as either heating or cooling if the total load of the building that hour is negative or positive. These loads are corrected when DOE-2
solves for the actual room temperature based on simple UA-deltaT principles. If you want the corrected wall loads, you need to get an hourly report of the wall loads and then correct for the temperature difference Troom - Treference.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure if this level of detail is warranted, though. I also suspect there's some other compounding effect that's giving you the results that you report.<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
Joe Huang <br>
White Box Technologies, Inc.<br>
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A<br>
Moraga CA 94556<br>
<a href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a><br>
<a href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data<br>
<a href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a><br>
(o) (925)388-0265<br>
(c) (510)928-2683<br>
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"<br>
<br>
<br>
On 4/23/2015 6:18 AM, Daniel Knapp wrote:<br>
Hi Mayank,<br>
<br>
I recommend opening up the SIM file (you can do this by going to Tools -> View Simulation Output) and looking at the LS-C and LV-D reports. In the LS-C report you can find the contribution to the peak heating and cooling loads that come from the walls. From
this you should be able to figure out how the wall conduction is changing as a fraction of the peak loads as you decrease the wall U-value. In the LV-D report (scroll to the very end of it) there is a summary of the U-values for each exterior surface. This
might be a good place to look to make sure that the effective U-values that eQUEST is simulating are matching up with your expectations of what the U-values should be.<br>
<br>
I would agree that the energy savings should saturate at some point.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
—<br>
Daniel Knapp, PhD, PPhys, LEED® AP O+M<br>
<a href="mailto:danielk@arborus.ca">danielk@arborus.ca</a><br>
<br>
Arborus Consulting<br>
Energy Strategies for the Built Environment<br>
<a href="http://www.arborus.ca">www.arborus.ca</a><br>
76 Chamberlain Avenue<br>
Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9<br>
Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113<br>
Fax: (613) 234-0740<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Apr 23, 2015, at 5:00 AM, Mayank Bhatnagar <a href="mailto:mayank.23aug@gmail.com">
<mayank.23aug@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi Claire,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your response.<br>
<br>
The analysis has been done on an 8 hour operating office building in New Delhi. The mechanical system is packaged single zone system with electric resistance heating.<br>
<br>
Please let me know if you need more information.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Mayank<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Claire Das Bhaumik <a href="mailto:claire@inklingllp.com">
<claire@inklingllp.com></a> wrote:<br>
Mayank,<br>
<br>
I think we need to know a bit more about the building:<br>
- Location (some parts of India are cool, others hot!)<br>
- Building usage - office, domestic, retail? Hours of use?<br>
- Servicing - heating and cooling? Mechanical or natural vent?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dr Claire Das Bhaumik CEng FCIBSE<br>
<br>
Partner - Inkling LLP<br>
<br>
<br>
e: <a href="mailto:claire@inklingllp.com">claire@inklingllp.com</a><br>
<br>
t: 07950 282800<br>
<br>
w: <a href="http://www.inklingllp.com">www.inklingllp.com</a><br>
<br>
Follow us on Twitter: @DasInkling<br>
<br>
Partnership No. OC367619<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Mayank Bhatnagar <a href="mailto:mayank.23aug@gmail.com">
<mayank.23aug@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
Dear All,<br>
<br>
We are working on a national level research project in India. A building envelope analysis is a part of this project. By doing analysis, we have found a vague results in trend (linearly downward) of reduction in energy consumption with reducing wall U-value
in eQUEST.<br>
<br>
Theoretically, the energy consumption should approach to stagnant with reduction in wall U-value.<br>
<br>
Please refer figure.<br>
<br>
Appreciate if anyone put light on this.<br>
<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Mayank Bhatnagar<br>
<br>
Theoretical should come like this.<br>
<image.png><br>
<br>
In eQuest the trend is-<br>
<image.png><br>
<br>
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