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<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">One other thing about
envelope insulation is it is not all equal in effect. Most times
an extra R-10 is more effective in the roof than on the wall or
under a floor. The type of insulation and what you do to place it
can have a large effect as well. I'm currently coming in late on
a super insulated house. R-30 EPS under the slab on grade, R-60
walls using wood I joists and cellulose and an R-60 cathedral roof
of the same. I haven't modeled it yet but I can pretty much guess
about R-15 was wasted under the floor and about R-20 on the wall.</font>
The floor sees a constant 45F delta T year round, the roof +60F to
-110F delta T and the walls +20F to -100F. The economics of the
build outs could be adjusted as well. On the walls a 2x3 parallel
cord truss would be in the range of 80% cheaper than a wood I. A
2x4 truss on the roof about 65% cheaper than a wood I. I know the
insulation companies claim their blown in insulation doesn't settle
but I have never found any of this magic insulation in real life.
If you have a 17' high column of blown in insulation I will
guarantee in 5 years you have a cavity at the top with zero
insulation. The design has a nice 14" wall overhang of the
foundation with minimal protection. Sooner or later a raccoon will
be turning a wall cavity into an apartment.<br>
There is always a trade-off and it is very climate dependent. Super
or platinum can mean many different things depending on where the
building is situated. Spending an extra $1000 to save $100 over 20
years doesn't make much sense either. Even less if the building has
a life span of 40 years. Also, a 2000 SF main floor slab of 50F
concrete can come in pretty handy when your 3 week heat wave hits,
depending on where it is of course.<br>
I suppose what I'm really railing against is everyone blindly
following "the prescription". Do this and everything is perfect,
get your star and everything is beautiful. LOL, fat chance! Most
"official" building codes are 60 to 70 years old and are still
evolving. This green, energy conservation and sustainability is
barely a decade old. Just don't forget common sense and being
practical. It is as much of the "art" as excellent modeling is.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering. <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/04/2015 04:29 PM, Chris Baker
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">After
seeing Nick’s comment I thought I would add my 2 cents just
being in Alaska and constantly dealing with insulation
issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
winter obviously puts high demands for heating and
ventilation and I think every building we’ve upgraded for
energy efficiency has seen substantial improvements in
energy savings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But
many of our clients insist on “more insulation is better” in
arctic conditions without really understanding the effects
over an entire year.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">On
some projects I’ve seen R-80+ systems with 18” wall
buildups. Not to mention R80-90+ roof buildups (14”-16”
thick) which obviously improve the overall heating
performance – especially given our heating systems are
typically operating more than 6 months out of the year.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But
there is a tradeoff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We
typically get around 4-1/2 months of 60-90 degree weather up
here. This puts a high demand on cooling systems during
this period. You can easily end up with a building so
heavily insulated that even in the mid 60’s outside temp
range the cooling system may need to operate unless all the
doors and windows were opened up– which isn’t always
possible because of security reasons.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
buildings become too efficient at retaining heat to the
degree that the cooling demand is higher to basically fight
the building during summer months to maintain temp
setpoints.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also,
Many buildings in Alaska do not have cooling systems so when
you increase R-value and U-value to a certain threshold you
are in some ways “biting the bullet” with regard to adding
appropriate ventilation and cooling systems capable of
cancelling out the heat buildup in warmer weather (which
offsets X dollar amount of energy savings provided during
the winter months).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Fortunately,
the end result in Alaska is usually a net cost savings just
because heating costs in Alaska are so ridiculously high
given most buildings use fuel-oil.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">However,
in theory, if you were to cut the cost of heating up here to
a certain threshold the cost of cooling the building would
eventually be higher than the cost of heating it in the
winter months. At which point I imagine someone doing the
classic face-palm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Equest-users [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Joe Huang; Daniel Knapp; Mayank Bhatnagar<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Expert
advice on Wall Insulation study in eQuest<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Great
discussion!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Since
this thread has clearly gathered attentions of the right
individuals, I’d like to layer on a query which may further
inform Mayank’s efforts:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is
the “law of diminishing returns” as you improve envelope
insulation universal to ALL climates, in practice or in
theory? While I have reliably observed such behavior
exploring comparable ECM’s in temperate climates, I am
curious whether tropical or arctic climates should expect
(all else being equal) a relatively “flatter” curve when
plotting R-value against annual energy savings? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My
gut tells me the reduced opportunity to leverage airside
economizer function or operable windows would make
incremental insulation increases more attractive for annual
energy consumption, but experience has taught me to question
my gut on such matters (…Thanks Joe!).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">NICK
CATON, P.E.</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782">Owner</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782">Caton
Energy Consulting</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
Shoreline, WA 98133<br>
office: 785.410.3317</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.catonenergy.com"><span
style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Equest-users [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joe Huang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daniel Knapp; Mayank Bhatnagar<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Expert
advice on Wall Insulation study in eQuest</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dan,<br>
<br>
Very good point! I didn't even think about this, i.e., that
the plot was against conductance and not resistance. <br>
Therefore, I would conclude that eQUEST is behaving properly.<br>
<br>
Joe<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Joe Huang<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>White Box Technologies, Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Moraga CA 94556<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(o) (925)388-0265<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(c) (510)928-2683<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>"building energy simulations at your fingertips"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 4/27/2015 11:12 AM, Daniel Knapp
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Mayank, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think on further reflection you are
seeing exactly what you should be seeing. The energy
consumption should go down linearly with the U-value. What
does saturate is the energy savings compared to insulation
thickness or R-value which is plotted as 1/U. Here is a
graph of energy vs. U and energy vs R for your building:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All the best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dan<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img
id="BF92CB2A-C210-4A66-AC36-237F522B1795"
src="cid:part6.04010808.06030501@bellnet.ca" border="0"
height="244" width="663"><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">—<br>
Daniel Knapp, PhD, PPhys, LEED® AP O+M<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:danielk@arborus.ca">danielk@arborus.ca</a><br>
<br>
Arborus Consulting<br>
Energy Strategies for the Built Environment<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.arborus.ca">www.arborus.ca</a><br>
76 Chamberlain Avenue <br>
Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9 <br>
Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113<br>
Fax: (613) 234-0740<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">On Apr 27, 2015, at 6:15 AM, Mayank
Bhatnagar <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mayank.23aug@gmail.com">mayank.23aug@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Thank you Joe and Daniel for your response.<br>
<br>
As you suggested, I checked LS-C report for wall
conduction variation w.r.t. U-value. It is also giving
linear trend for wall conduction. Additionally, I have
done same analysis for without internal loads
(occupancy, lighting and equipment load) as Joe
indicated about the compounding effect. I still get
linear trend between the energy consumption and
U-value. <br>
<br>
For your reference, I am attaching inp, pd2 and weather
file.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Joe Huang <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>> wrote:<br>
Mayank, Daniel,<br>
<br>
I think it's a good idea to look at the component loads
in the LS-C reports, but I want to add some words of
caution.<br>
The loads (actually heat flows) shown in those reports
are calculated at the constant Reference Temperature,
and categorized as either heating or cooling if the
total load of the building that hour is negative or
positive. These loads are corrected when DOE-2 solves
for the actual room temperature based on simple
UA-deltaT principles. If you want the corrected wall
loads, you need to get an hourly report of the wall
loads and then correct for the temperature difference
Troom - Treference.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure if this level of detail is warranted,
though. I also suspect there's some other compounding
effect that's giving you the results that you report.<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
Joe Huang <br>
White Box Technologies, Inc.<br>
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A<br>
Moraga CA 94556<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for
simulation-ready weather data<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a><br>
(o) (925)388-0265<br>
(c) (510)928-2683<br>
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"<br>
<br>
<br>
On 4/23/2015 6:18 AM, Daniel Knapp wrote:<br>
Hi Mayank,<br>
<br>
I recommend opening up the SIM file (you can do this by
going to Tools -> View Simulation Output) and looking
at the LS-C and LV-D reports. In the LS-C report you can
find the contribution to the peak heating and cooling
loads that come from the walls. From this you should be
able to figure out how the wall conduction is changing
as a fraction of the peak loads as you decrease the wall
U-value. In the LV-D report (scroll to the very end of
it) there is a summary of the U-values for each exterior
surface. This might be a good place to look to make sure
that the effective U-values that eQUEST is simulating
are matching up with your expectations of what the
U-values should be.<br>
<br>
I would agree that the energy savings should saturate at
some point.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
—<br>
Daniel Knapp, PhD, PPhys, LEED® AP O+M<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:danielk@arborus.ca">danielk@arborus.ca</a><br>
<br>
Arborus Consulting<br>
Energy Strategies for the Built Environment<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.arborus.ca">www.arborus.ca</a><br>
76 Chamberlain Avenue<br>
Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9<br>
Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113<br>
Fax: (613) 234-0740<br>
<br>
<br>
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On Apr 23, 2015, at 5:00 AM, Mayank Bhatnagar <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mayank.23aug@gmail.com">
<mayank.23aug@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi Claire,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your response.<br>
<br>
The analysis has been done on an 8 hour operating office
building in New Delhi. The mechanical system is packaged
single zone system with electric resistance heating.<br>
<br>
Please let me know if you need more information.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Mayank<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Claire Das Bhaumik <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:claire@inklingllp.com">
<claire@inklingllp.com></a> wrote:<br>
Mayank,<br>
<br>
I think we need to know a bit more about the building:<br>
- Location (some parts of India are cool, others hot!)<br>
- Building usage - office, domestic, retail? Hours of
use?<br>
- Servicing - heating and cooling? Mechanical or natural
vent?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dr Claire Das Bhaumik CEng FCIBSE<br>
<br>
Partner - Inkling LLP<br>
<br>
<br>
e: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:claire@inklingllp.com">claire@inklingllp.com</a><br>
<br>
t: 07950 282800<br>
<br>
w: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.inklingllp.com">www.inklingllp.com</a><br>
<br>
Follow us on Twitter: @DasInkling<br>
<br>
Partnership No. OC367619<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Mayank Bhatnagar <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mayank.23aug@gmail.com">
<mayank.23aug@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
Dear All,<br>
<br>
We are working on a national level research project in
India. A building envelope analysis is a part of this
project. By doing analysis, we have found a vague
results in trend (linearly downward) of reduction in
energy consumption with reducing wall U-value in eQUEST.<br>
<br>
Theoretically, the energy consumption should approach to
stagnant with reduction in wall U-value.<br>
<br>
Please refer figure.<br>
<br>
Appreciate if anyone put light on this.<br>
<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Mayank Bhatnagar<br>
<br>
Theoretical should come like this.<br>
<image.png><br>
<br>
In eQuest the trend is-<br>
<image.png><br>
<br>
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