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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">One more thing...<br>
<br>
If the pool is uncovered, the night sky radiation losses are not
insignificant. I believe that the "energyexperts" data takes this
into account.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068
===============================================
</pre>
On 3/29/2014 2:00 PM, Riley Beise wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tom,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
Here’s how I do it: (geez it looks long now that I’ve
written it, but it’s really not bad and I feel it does a
good job)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Determine your peak evaporation rate
(lb/hr) for the pool(s) within the natatorium<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Should be available from the pool
designers or if not, see the Natatorium section in ASHRAE
Handbook – HVAC Applications section 5 (Places of Assembly).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">b.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Values will depend largely on water
temperature and peak “Activity Factor” expected, but
ballpark values are<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0
level3 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span>i.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Lap pool: 0.05 lb/hr per ft² of water
surface area<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0
level3 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span>ii.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Leisure pool: 0.2 lb/hr per ft² of
water surface area (warmer than lap and higher activity
factor (more splashing = more evaporation))<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0
level3 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span>iii.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Swirl or Hot Tub: 0.4 lb/hr per ft² of
water surface area (hot, with jets)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.5in"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Create a schedule to represent the
pool evaporation rate during different usage scenarios
(different activity factors, different evaporation rates).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">I use three modes of operation:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0
level3 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span>i.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Unoccupied and uncovered: approx. 0.3<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0
level3 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span>ii.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Occupied and low use: approx. 0.7<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0
level3 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span>iii.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Occupied and high use: 1.0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.5in"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Create an Internal Energy Source
within your natatorium space with the magnitude equal to the
peak evaporation rate, but in Btu/hr (1000 Btu/lb of water
evaporating), and make the load 100% latent, 0% sensible
like so: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><img id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.03030707.09080807@wichert.org" height="119"
width="649"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Now create a process heating load on
your heating water loop and apply the same schedule. The
magnitude of the load is calculated as:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Pool water heat loss to evaporation
(equal to evaporation “Internal Energy Source”), PLUS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">b.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Heating energy required to heat the
makeup water from DCW inlet up to pool water temperature.
This is accounting for heating the fresh water that is
replacing the water lost due to evaporation (in the range of
140 Btu/hr per lb/hr of water depending on your makeup water
and pool water temps)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">c.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Note that this assumes that 100% of
the heat required for evaporation at the pool’s surface is
provided by the pool water’s heat, where in reality it is
expected that some component comes from the air, though I
expect it is a small component.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">5.<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">Set min and max RH in your AHU and
you’re done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">And if you felt
there was significant heat loss through the pool wall to the
ground, you could add that in as well, though I think that
it probably isn’t when compared to the energy involved in
evaporation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">Riley Beise</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">, P.Eng., BEMP, LEED Green Associate</span><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">Energy Analyst</span><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:#17365D"
lang="EN-CA">AME Consulting Group</span></b><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:green"
lang="EN-CA">721 Johnson Street</span></b><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:green"
lang="EN-CA">Victoria, BC, V8W 1M8</span></b><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:green"
lang="EN-CA">p. 250-382-5999</span><span
style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
RobertWichert [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:robert@wichert.org">mailto:robert@wichert.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Natatorium/Pool<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well, it's not EQuest, but it's on topic:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://energyexperts.org/CalculatorsTools/PoolEnergyUseCalculator.aspx">http://energyexperts.org/CalculatorsTools/PoolEnergyUseCalculator.aspx</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>+1 916 966 9060<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FAX +1 916 966 9068<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>===============================================<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/28/2014 11:49 AM, Tom Mickley wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Does anyone have a simple, easy way to
model an in ground pool and spa for a natatorium?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tom Mickley<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mechanical Engineer CEM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The K Company<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cell 330-760-3994<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Office 330-773-5125<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
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