<div dir="ltr">First of all thank you all for your answers once again.<div><br></div><div>I tried some things, starting by changing the approach of the Loop-to-loop heat pump to the 2-Pipe loop as you proposed, which is obviously better, but I don't seem to get the snap temperature correct. There will always be some unmet cooling or heating hours. Is there a way to minimize these ?</div>
<div><br></div><div>As far as the Systems 9/10 are concerned, I read that these are applicable only for heated storage or similar spaces. My spaces are normally occupied and conditioned/ventilated with mechanical or natural ventilation. It is projected that no cooling will be needed since there is no summer operation of the building, but since this is not absolutely certain, the approach to have baseline cooling in the proposed case is better-suited (to my view). My question is, to what extent should baseline cooling be the 'same' for proposed ? Should kW/cfm for fans be the same as well?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Regarding ground source heat pumps, do you know if there are any available curves ready to use in eQuest ?</div><div><br></div><div>Also, any thoughts for the implementation of natural ventilation? I've read about solutions using other software, but unfortunately my knowledge is limited to eQuest. Is it possible to prove savings to LEED for natural ventilation using eQuest only ? Has anyone attempted this?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Best regards<br></div><div>Nick Patsos</div><div>Mechanical Engineer</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On 7 February 2014 18:13, Hall, Brendan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:BHall@karpinskieng.com" target="_blank">BHall@karpinskieng.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">A couple things to add:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">There is also a heat pump chiller type that you can try, as opposed to zone WSHP units. Either way make sure to get good performance data so you
can generate custom performance curves, since the standard conditions for rating geothermal heat pumps are different than WSHP or air cooled heat pumps. There are some default curves in equest for WSHPs that are a good starting point though.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It is likely that the engineer ran GLHEPRO or some other sizing calculation on the geo loop so you may be able to get good ground temperatures from
there.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">With a two pipe loop it is always important to have the loop operation on a schedule or set to “Snap” to lock out cooling in the winter and vice versa.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">System 9 and 10 are available in 2007 as a addendum.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In the non-cooled spaces I would check and see if there is still a minimum ventilation that needs to be maintained year round. Otherwise use the system
9 mentioned before, it is a hot water unit heater. It is easier and more realistic in my opinion than adding cooling where there is none.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Brendan Hall, PE, LEED AP</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">BD+C</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Engineer, Mechanical<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">karpinski<br>
</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">ENGINEERING</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3135 Euclid Avenue<br>
Cleveland, OH 44115</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">P</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">
<a href="tel:216.391.3700" target="_blank">216.391.3700</a> Ext 3111<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">E</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">
</span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><a href="mailto:bhall@karpinskieng.com" title="mailto:myuhasz@karpinskieng.com" target="_blank">bhall@karpinskieng.com</a></span></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">W
</span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">www.<a href="http://www.karpinskieng.com/" title="http://www.karpinskieng.com/" target="_blank">karpinskieng.com</a></span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 07, 2014 10:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Patsos</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Water to water geothermal heat pump / Radiators / No cooling / Natural ventilation<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Nick,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">You could try running your model with water-to-air heat pump systems first (DX systems with water-cooled condensers), connected to a Water Loop HP loop with
rejection to a Ground Loop HX of TYPE = HORIZ-SLINKY-LOOP (or whatever is appropriate for your closed-circuit loop, and sized per your actual design). A custom Hourly Report will give you the ground loop temperatures which you can then use to create the temperature
schedule for the LAKE/WELL HX.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">There is precedent for using the Systems 9/10 from 90.1-2010 for LEED. You can probably find the CIRs or other reference in the list archive.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">~Bill<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Patsos<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 07, 2014 10:23 AM<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Water to water geothermal heat pump / Radiators / No cooling / Natural ventilation<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bill thank you very much, I will look into it with the approach you describe.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding the temperature schedule for the GHX, is it possible to calculate it somehow? Sure there is limitation to the energy that the ground can receive from a closed circuit exchanger in comparison with the open loop that can receive
any amount.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The project is for LEED for Schools 2009 so it uses the 90.1-2007, no heating only systems there.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick Patsos<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mechanical Engineer<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin-left:138.75pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt">
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 7 February 2014 16:53, Bishop, Bill <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Nick,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">You can use a chiller of TYPE = HEAT-PUMP to model W2W GSHP. You attach it/them to a CHW loop of
TYPE = PIPE2 (a two-pipe loop) that provides either hot or cold water but never at the same time, and configure the switchover using the Operation and Controls tabs of the loop. You can also add condensing boiler(s) to the two-pipe loop and stage them with
the W2W chiller(s) using Equipment Controls and Load Management in the loop Controls tab. The GSHP connection to the ground loop is via a LAKE/WELL CW loop, to which you can attach a GROUND-LOOP-HX of TYPE = LAKE/WELL. You have to specify the temperatures
of the HX in the LOOP-TEMP-SCH (they are not calculated hourly like they are for the other GHX types) or eQUEST will default to the monthly ground temperatures from the weather file.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I would look into the heating-only Systems 9/10 in 90.1-2010 for spaces with no cooling.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Bill</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif"">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, LEED AP
<span style="color:#006600">|</span> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="522" style="width:391.85pt;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Senior Energy Engineer</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
<td width="153" rowspan="6" style="width:114.45pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:.2in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><img border="0" width="123" height="83" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CF23F1.C6057290" alt="webCertified_logo_colorRGB72DPI.jpg"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:5.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:10.5pt">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">134 South Fitzhugh Street</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1f497d">
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rochester, NY 14608</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#002060">T: (585) 698-1956</span><span style="color:#002060">
</span></i></b><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">F: (585) 325-6005</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green"><img border="0" width="31" height="28" src="cid:image002.png@01CF23F1.C6057290" alt="earth for signature"></span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:green">Sustainability
– the forest AND the trees.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Patsos<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 07, 2014 7:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Water to water geothermal heat pump / Radiators / No cooling / Natural ventilation</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I need your opinions on a very complex system that I have to model for LEED in eQuest.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The system is a water to water geothermal heat pump capable of producing hot water for heating and in the summer season chilled water for cooling, not simultaneously.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The hot water is to be used by low-temp radiators (no fans) in spaces or FCUs. In some spaces ERV ventilators provide fresh air (constant speed) / in some only natural ventilation
is provided (significant issues there to be discussed in due time).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are spaces which have no heating/cooling by FCUs, only radiators (with ERVs or without).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have made a diagram to give a quick overview picture attached.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The issues are as follows:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1) I tried modelling a Loop-to-loop heat pump system producing both hot and chilled water but I find significant consumption in cooling (coincident with heating) in the winter months
which is highly unusual, thus very increased overall consumption in comparison with the baseline packaged VAV (PVAVS) system. Any alternatives ?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2) For the not cooled spaces I used baseboard heating and as system PVAVS cooling (due to the same as baseline cooling condition), I don't know if this is the correct approach.
For the fan power of PVAVS do I have to use the same as baseline kW/cfm ? What about when the system is in heating when only baseboards should work (no fans) ? How 's this to be modeled ? Any ideas?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">3) For the geothermal loop, I have a ground loop heat exchanger, now modelled as Lake/Well (due to limitations of the Loop to Loop heat pump) but in reality it will be a straight
pipe closed circuit loop. I remember reading about creating a custom temp. schedule to model the exchanger, is it possible ?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">4) Something more obvious than the above but still unsure, is PVAVS in eQuest the way to model Packaged VAV with Reheat as in 90.1 ?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">5) Has anyone successfully tried the Shermad-Grimsrud method for natural ventilation in eQuest ?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As you see, it is really messed up, mostly due to the water-to-water heat pump. I know that I'm asking lots of questions in different topics at once. Ideas in any of the topics
are greatly appreciated.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nikos Patsos<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mechanical Engineer
<u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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