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True. I was thinking more on the comparison of insulation
efficiency. These buildings as modelled and designed have R-18.5 of
insulation and the net effect to the envelope is R-10 or less.
Comparing this type of a building and our current housing code in
Canada where glass is limited to 17% of the wall area, R-4+ glass,
wall insulation of R-28 and roof insulation of R-60 and intense
scrutiny of thermal breaks, well lets just say they are energy
pigs. When you have an R-2 or 3 glass wall a little bit of R-2
concrete in there doesn't make much difference. Even if you stick a
fin out 8' is still doesn't make much difference.<br>
The research is interesting and quantifies the effect. It also
shows current modelling does a reasonable job of reflecting what is
going on. But for the building as a whole and the model it can have
a small impact if it isn't efficiently designed. The impact of how
it is modelled has an even smaller impact. 60% of R-20 is
significant, 60% of R-2 is meaningless and a 3% error in that is
nothing.<br>
The big picture is getting lost in all this work. We are using a
modelling technique in which a 10% error is considered very
accurate, a good model. Many of the early LEED buildings, as built,
deviated from the models by 100% brand new. Many others that did ok
on day one were way out by year 5. The models weren't the main
problem, it was application. Modelling is expensive. It seems to
me that sometimes too much time, effort and money is spent chasing
less than a percentage point of gain. There is a science to keeping
the model efficient as well. Also, the main way a model is used is
as a "what if" test platform. Holding most things constant and
trying variations. This reduces error as well. But if the sealing
contractor does a poor job and the building takes a 15% hit a little
bit of R-2 concrete on the envelope doesn't matter very much.<br>
The science is great, this type of research is very illuminating and
will drive better design. The application of our technology, the
tools we use and how we use them is the biggest variable affecting
the efficiencies we are trying to achieve.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/11/2013 10:57 AM, Nathan Miller
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
wasn’t saying the effect of exposed slab edges and balconies
is insignificant. What I was saying is that I don’t see much
difference in using the thermal performance for those
assemblies modeled in the report vs. using typical practice
of just calling balconies and exposed slab edges
“uninsulated concrete walls” and assigning that default
U-factor to them (hence you would have about a 1’ high
uninsulated concrete wall and an 8-9’ high typical opaque
wall). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">Nathan
Miller
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">PE,
LEED<sup>®</sup>AP BD+C, CEM<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst
<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Bruce Easterbrook [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 06, 2013 5:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robby Oylear; Nathan Miller<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Griffin; Kapil Upadhyaya;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab extending
through wall<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I would think
the effect of the balconies would increase the thickness of
the exterior laminar layer on the building. The air flow is
perpendicular to the fins. In calm conditions the main driver
is going to be stack effect. The exposed edges are on a flat
surface and would have a normal boundary layer. Without a
projection they would offer little resistance to the airflow
from the stack effect.<br>
A 60% reduction in effective R-value for a building is quite a
significant effect depending on where you are starting from.
A high ratio glass building is a low starting point.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 05/11/2013 05:25 PM, Robby Oylear
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It surprises me that the report
indicates a better R-value for the fin effect of a
concrete balcony vs. the simplified exposed slab edge
approach. Seems to violate the basic teachings heat
transfer 101. I can't think of a logical explanation of
how that could be the case and would chalk it up to
intricacies of the modeling tool. However I agree with
Nathan that since the report doesn't show nearly any
difference between the fin effect vs. the exposed slab
edge that it's not necessarily worth the complication in
modeling unless the balcony slabs are the focus of the
study.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 2:00 PM,
Nathan Miller <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com" target="_blank">nathanm@rushingco.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Kapil,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">No, I am only accounting
for the “face” of the balcony, as if you sheared
it off at the plane of the wall.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">That is my point, the
fancy thermal modeling in the report, which is
supposed to account multi-dimensional
fin-effects doesn’t come out with much different
result than if you just take a simplified
approach like a typical UA-trade-off calculation
(one directional heat transfer, no fin effects
accounted for). So by that line of reasoning,
you would likely be OVER ESTIMATING heat loss if
you throw in all three heat-exchanger surfaces
that you mention in your methodology. I’d be
interested if you compared your calculation
results to the thermal modeling in the report if
you feel like a little intellectual exercise.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">Nathan
Miller
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">PE,
LEED<sup>®</sup>AP BD+C, CEM</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:4.0pt"><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst
</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">RUSHING</span></b><span
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</span><span
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href="tel:206-788-4577" target="_blank">206-788-4577</a>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#6F1200"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rushingco.com/"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#6F1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Kapil Upadhyaya [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:KapilU@kirksey.com"
target="_blank">KapilU@kirksey.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:53
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nathan Miller; Bishop, Bill; David
Griffin; 'Coleman, Kevin'; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Nathan,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In
the Balcony calculation, are you accounting
for both the 'edges' and 'exposed area' of
the balcony ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In
my opinion, a concrete balcony should be
accounted for as a heat exchanger with 3
surfaces (perimeter edges, upper surface,
lower surface); it looks like you are only
accounting for the edges. </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I
had a 'heated' discussion about this with a
vendor recently and the above is more or
less a conclusion of that. Some of the
structural thermal break products can be too
expensive to justify based on energy
savings, if area of balconies is not
accounted for; the bigger your balcony, the
better your payback from thermal breaks.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Kapil
Upadhyaya, LEED AP</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Associate</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">Kirksey</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red"> |</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Architecture<br>
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style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
Houston Texas 77024 </span><span
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o <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kapilu@kirksey.com"
target="_blank">kapilu@kirksey.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">2012-2013
Firm of the Year </span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"><br>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Nathan Miller [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com"
target="_blank">mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013
5:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill; David Griffin;
'Coleman, Kevin'; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">To me the most
interesting part of the report isn’t the
conclusion that thermally broken balconies
and slab edges give significantly better
thermal performance (we all know that
intuitively). Instead it gives a way of back
checking what I would consider to be
“standard practice” for calculating
area-weighted U-factor for these same
assemblies using default ASHRAE U-values to
sophisticated thermal model results. Here
are my thoughts, checking my calcs and
comments appreciated.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="color:#1F497D">Executive summary:
It looks like our standard assembly
performance tables and area-weighted
U-factor calculations get us “close
enough” to the results from this report
that it doesn’t seem to suggest we should
switch methodologies.
</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="color:#1F497D">Comparison
calculation for steel-framed walls (stud
insulation + exterior rigid):</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D;background:yellow">For
a 16” OC metal stud wall, R-12 Batt cavity
insulation and R-5 continuous rigid
insulation, the report states that the
Effective R-value for the wall + slab will
be R-7.4.</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
This is based on 8’8” floor-to-floor, and 8”
slab.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Using ASHRAE 90.1-2007
Table A3.3 for steel framed walls, we would
get an effective U-factor for the wall
portion of U = 0.0785 (interpolating between
the R-13 + R-11 batt values). If we use
Table A3.1A for the exposed slab edge
(assuming 8” normal weight solid concrete
walls), we get a U-factor of U = 0.740 for
the slab edge.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D;background:yellow">Doing
an area weighted U-factor calc</span><span
style="color:#1F497D">: U<sub>eff</sub> = U<sub>1</sub>*A<sub>1</sub>+U<sub>2</sub>*A<sub>2</sub>/(A<sub>1</sub>+A<sub>2</sub>)
or in this case, factoring out the Length of
the wall section we use: U<sub>1</sub>*H<sub>1</sub>+U<sub>2</sub>*H<sub>2</sub>/(H<sub>1</sub>+H<sub>2</sub>)
= (0.0785*8 + 0.740*8/12)/(8+8/12) = 0.1294
or an
<span style="background:yellow">effective
R-value of 7.73, which is pretty close to
the R-7.4 claimed, a difference of about
4% in U-value</span>. Maybe I’m cynical,
but to me that seems close enough.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">I only spot checked
this assembly, so maybe there is more impact
with different construction types.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Another interesting
tid-bit: Apparently the much vaunted
fin-effect is actually pretty minimal. If
you look at the results of the exposed
slab-edge condition vs the full balcony
fin-effect, the balcony scenario actually
shows slightly BETTER thermal performance.
Odd.
<br>
<img id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part14.06040904.02030304@bellnet.ca"
border="0" height="206" width="949"><br>
<img id="_x0000_i1026"
src="cid:part15.00090904.03090300@bellnet.ca"
border="0" height="165" width="957"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">Nathan
Miller
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">PE,
LEED<sup>®</sup>AP BD+C, CEM</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:4.0pt"><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst
</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">RUSHING</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">|
</span><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">D</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:206-788-4577" target="_blank">206-788-4577</a>
|</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F"></span><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">O</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#A50021">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:206-285-7100" target="_blank">206-285-7100</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#6F1200"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rushingco.com/"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#6F1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013
1:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Griffin; 'Coleman,
Kevin'; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Here’s a timely report
on effective R-values of assemblies with
slab/balcony thermal bridges:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rdhbe.com/database/files/library/Balcony_and_Slab_Edge_Thermal_Bridges___1___R_values_and_Energy_Code_Canada__Sept_24_13.pdf"
target="_blank">The Importance of Slab
Edge and Balcony Thermal Bridges</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">William Bishop,
PE, BEMP, BEAP, LEED AP | Pathfinder
Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<table class="MsoNormalTable"
style="width:391.85pt;border-collapse:collapse"
cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"
width="522">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:.2in">
<td style="width:277.4pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt;height:.2in" width="370">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Senior
Energy Engineer</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td rowspan="6"
style="width:114.45pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt;height:.2in" width="153">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><img
id="_x0000_i1027"
src="cid:part23.09020809.02070308@bellnet.ca"
alt="webCertified_logo_colorRGB72DPI.jpg" border="0" height="83"
width="123"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:4.9pt">
<td style="width:277.4pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt;height:4.9pt" valign="top"
width="370">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:5.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:10.5pt">
<td style="width:277.4pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt;height:10.5pt" nowrap="nowrap"
valign="bottom" width="370">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">134
South Fitzhugh Street</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt">
</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Rochester,
NY 14608</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:13.3pt">
<td style="width:277.4pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt;height:13.3pt" valign="top"
width="370">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">T:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6004"
target="_blank">(585) 325-6004</a>
</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Ext.
114</span>
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">F:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6005"
target="_blank">
(585) 325-6005</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:10.5pt">
<td style="width:277.4pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt;height:10.5pt" valign="top"
width="370">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:26.3pt">
<td style="width:277.4pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt;height:26.3pt" valign="top"
width="370">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt">
</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt">Sustainability
– the forest AND the trees.</span><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">
</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;color:green"> </span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Griffin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013
4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Coleman, Kevin'; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Kevin,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">I’m
fairly sure eQUEST is not even going to
closely approximate the heat loss/gain
accurately unless you dial the loads in
manually which means you have to calculate
them by hand first. I suggest referring to
ASHRAE-D-RP-1365 for guidance on estimating
the loads. The section you are interested in
starts on page 35.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">David
W. Griffin II</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Energy
Analyst</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">ETC
Group, LLC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:801-278-1927%20x%20128"
target="_blank">801-278-1927 x 128</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Cell
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:480-736-2945"
target="_blank">
480-736-2945</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dgriffin@etcgrp.com"
target="_blank">dgriffin@etcgrp.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.etcgrp.com"
target="_blank">www.etcgrp.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><img
id="_x0000_i1028"
src="cid:part35.01050400.04000000@bellnet.ca"
alt="Copy of ETC_LogoOnly2_rgb_sm.png"
border="0" height="27" width="112"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Energy
Engineering for a Sustainable Future</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">1997
South 1100 East, Salt Lake City, UT
84106-4471
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:4.5pt">
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style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Coleman, Kevin [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kcoleman@nexant.com"
target="_blank">mailto:kcoleman@nexant.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013
11:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
am evaluating a new 10-story hotel design that
is proposing glass curtain walls and
pre-tensioned concrete floors that project
beyond the walls. On 3 sides the projections
are minimal (6 inches). However, on one side,
the projections extend about 3 ft. <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">For
the small projections, I intent to use the
following method recommended in the thread
below. “In screen 4 of 25 of the DD shell
wizard you can specify "Slab Penetrates Wall
Plane" (check box).”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
am interested in any tips for modeling the
thermal impacts of the larger projections.
Thoughts? (I plan to use window shading for
the light/shading impacts.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
am hopeful that the analysis will help
convince the design team to incorporate some
insulation and thermal breaks!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks
in advance!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Kevin<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Brian
Fountain bfountain at
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://greensim.com" target="_blank">greensim.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Mon
Dec 6 11:45:18 PST 2010<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Previous
message: [Equest-users] balcony<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Next
message: [Equest-users] Shading<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Messages
sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [
author ]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">In
screen 4 of 25 of the DD shell wizard you can
specify "Slab
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Penetrates
Wall Plane" (check box). If you do, eQUEST
created a new
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">wall
type of height equal to your slab thickness
and composed of 1' of
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">concrete
plus any slab edge insulation you specify on
the same wiz
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">screen.
That provides a parallel path for the heat
transfer from the
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">balcony
or slab edge. Not exactly 2D heat transfer
modelling -- but at
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">least
you aren't ignoring the effect of the slab
edge or balcony.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1F497D">Kevin
Coleman, CEM, LEED AP</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#000066">
</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">■</span><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#000066">
</span><b><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#999999">Project
Manager
</span></b><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">■</span></b><b><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#000066">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1F497D">Nexant,
Inc.</span></b><b><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#000066">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">■</span></b><b><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#999999"> Demand
Management
</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#999999">1232 Fourier Drive,
Suite 125</span><span style="color:#000066">
</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">■</span><span
style="color:#999999"> Madison, WI 53717 </span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">■</span><span
style="color:#999999">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:608.824.1230" target="_blank">608.824.1230</a>
</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">■</span><span
style="color:#999999">
</span><span style="color:#000066"> </span><u><span
style="color:blue"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kcoleman@nexant.com"
target="_blank">kcoleman@nexant.com</a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P
</span><span style="color:green">Please
consider the environment before printing
this email<b>
</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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serif","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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