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My guess is that the 3-D thermal model uses a pretty simple surface
convection/radiation assumption, like an air film. To properly
model the fin effects, the thermal model would need to be coupled
with CFD and a radiation model to account for the more complex heat
transfer effects associated with "fins".<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/5/2013 2:25 PM, Robby Oylear
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMXhxQXMmCSLCJ1GXfsP7fy8Ex1V8QBUgs7-S3kU9dr956EkJQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">It surprises me that the report indicates a better
R-value for the fin effect of a concrete balcony vs. the
simplified exposed slab edge approach. Seems to violate the
basic teachings heat transfer 101. I can't think of a logical
explanation of how that could be the case and would chalk it up
to intricacies of the modeling tool. However I agree with
Nathan that since the report doesn't show nearly any difference
between the fin effect vs. the exposed slab edge that it's not
necessarily worth the complication in modeling unless the
balcony slabs are the focus of the study.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Nathan
Miller <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com" target="_blank">nathanm@rushingco.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Kapil,
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">No, I
am only accounting for the “face” of the balcony, as
if you sheared it off at the plane of the wall.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">That is
my point, the fancy thermal modeling in the report,
which is supposed to account multi-dimensional
fin-effects doesn’t come out with much different
result than if you just take a simplified approach
like a typical UA-trade-off calculation (one
directional heat transfer, no fin effects accounted
for). So by that line of reasoning, you would likely
be OVER ESTIMATING heat loss if you throw in all
three heat-exchanger surfaces that you mention in
your methodology. I’d be interested if you compared
your calculation results to the thermal modeling in
the report if you feel like a little intellectual
exercise.</span></p>
<div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">Nathan
Miller
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">-</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">PE,
LEED<sup>®</sup>AP BD+C, CEM</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst
</span></i></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Kapil Upadhyaya
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:KapilU@kirksey.com" target="_blank">KapilU@kirksey.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nathan Miller; Bishop, Bill; David
Griffin; 'Coleman, Kevin'; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Slab extending
through wall</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Nathan,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In
the Balcony calculation, are you accounting for
both the 'edges' and 'exposed area' of the
balcony ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In
my opinion, a concrete balcony should be
accounted for as a heat exchanger with 3
surfaces (perimeter edges, upper surface, lower
surface); it looks like you are only accounting
for the edges. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I
had a 'heated' discussion about this with a
vendor recently and the above is more or less a
conclusion of that. Some of the structural
thermal break products can be too expensive to
justify based on energy savings, if area of
balconies is not accounted for; the bigger your
balcony, the better your payback from thermal
breaks.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Best,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Kapil
Upadhyaya, LEED AP</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Associate</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">Kirksey</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red"> |</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Architecture<br>
6909 Portwest Drive </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">|</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
Houston Texas 77024 </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">|</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
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href="http://www.kirksey.com"
target="_blank"><span style="">www.kirksey.com</span></a>
<br>
o <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:713%C2%A0426%C2%A07508"
value="+17134267508" target="_blank">713 426 7508</a> </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red">|</span><span
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kapilu@kirksey.com"
target="_blank"><span style="">kapilu@kirksey.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">2012-2013
Firm of the Year </span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"><br>
Texas Society of Architects</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Nathan Miller [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com"
target="_blank">mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013 5:27
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill; David Griffin;
'Coleman, Kevin'; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">To
me the most interesting part of the report isn’t
the conclusion that thermally broken balconies
and slab edges give significantly better thermal
performance (we all know that intuitively).
Instead it gives a way of back checking what I
would consider to be “standard practice” for
calculating area-weighted U-factor for these
same assemblies using default ASHRAE U-values to
sophisticated thermal model results. Here are my
thoughts, checking my calcs and comments
appreciated.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1f497d">Executive
summary: It looks like our standard assembly
performance tables and area-weighted U-factor
calculations get us “close enough” to the
results from this report that it doesn’t seem
to suggest we should switch methodologies. </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1f497d">Comparison
calculation for steel-framed walls (stud
insulation + exterior rigid):</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d;background:yellow">For a
16” OC metal stud wall, R-12 Batt cavity
insulation and R-5 continuous rigid insulation,
the report states that the Effective R-value for
the wall + slab will be R-7.4.</span><span
style="color:#1f497d"> This is based on 8’8”
floor-to-floor, and 8” slab.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Using
ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Table A3.3 for steel framed
walls, we would get an effective U-factor for
the wall portion of U = 0.0785 (interpolating
between the R-13 + R-11 batt values). If we use
Table A3.1A for the exposed slab edge (assuming
8” normal weight solid concrete walls), we get a
U-factor of U = 0.740 for the slab edge.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d;background:yellow">Doing an
area weighted U-factor calc</span><span
style="color:#1f497d">: U<sub>eff</sub> = U<sub>1</sub>*A<sub>1</sub>+U<sub>2</sub>*A<sub>2</sub>/(A<sub>1</sub>+A<sub>2</sub>)
or in this case, factoring out the Length of the
wall section we use: U<sub>1</sub>*H<sub>1</sub>+U<sub>2</sub>*H<sub>2</sub>/(H<sub>1</sub>+H<sub>2</sub>)
= (0.0785*8 + 0.740*8/12)/(8+8/12) = 0.1294 or
an
<span style="background:yellow">effective
R-value of 7.73, which is pretty close to the
R-7.4 claimed, a difference of about 4% in
U-value</span>. Maybe I’m cynical, but to me
that seems close enough.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I
only spot checked this assembly, so maybe there
is more impact with different construction
types.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Another
interesting tid-bit: Apparently the much vaunted
fin-effect is actually pretty minimal. If you
look at the results of the exposed slab-edge
condition vs the full balcony fin-effect, the
balcony scenario actually shows slightly BETTER
thermal performance. Odd. <br>
<img
src="cid:part13.06050002.07010208@360-Analytics.com"
border="0" height="206" width="949"><br>
<img
src="cid:part14.08060801.00090603@360-Analytics.com"
border="0" height="165" width="957"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">Nathan
Miller
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">-</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">PE,
LEED<sup>®</sup>AP BD+C, CEM</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst
</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">RUSHING</span></b><span
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</span><span
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</span><span
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href="tel:206-285-7100" value="+12062857100"
target="_blank">206-285-7100</a></span><span
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style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#6f1200"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rushingco.com/"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#6f1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423"></span></b></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013 1:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Griffin; 'Coleman, Kevin'; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Here’s
a timely report on effective R-values of
assemblies with slab/balcony thermal bridges:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rdhbe.com/database/files/library/Balcony_and_Slab_Edge_Thermal_Bridges___1___R_values_and_Energy_Code_Canada__Sept_24_13.pdf"
target="_blank">The Importance of Slab Edge
and Balcony Thermal Bridges</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Bill</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin
Gothic Medium","sans-serif"">William
Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin
Gothic
Medium","sans-serif";color:#006600">|</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin
Gothic Medium","sans-serif"">
Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Griffin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013 4:20
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Coleman, Kevin'; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d">Kevin,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d">I’m
fairly sure eQUEST is not even going to closely
approximate the heat loss/gain accurately unless
you dial the loads in manually which means you
have to calculate them by hand first. I suggest
referring to ASHRAE-D-RP-1365 for guidance on
estimating the loads. The section you are
interested in starts on page 35.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d">David
W. Griffin II</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d">Energy
Analyst</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d">ETC
Group, LLC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:801-278-1927%20x%20128"
value="+18012781927" target="_blank">801-278-1927
x 128</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d">Cell
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:480-736-2945"
value="+14807362945" target="_blank">480-736-2945</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><b><span
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Engineering for a Sustainable Future</span></b><span
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span
style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">1997
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Coleman, Kevin [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kcoleman@nexant.com"
target="_blank">mailto:kcoleman@nexant.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013 11:56
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Slab
extending through wall</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am evaluating a new 10-story
hotel design that is proposing glass curtain walls
and pre-tensioned concrete floors that project
beyond the walls. On 3 sides the projections are
minimal (6 inches). However, on one side, the
projections extend about 3 ft. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For the small projections, I
intent to use the following method recommended in
the thread below. “In screen 4 of 25 of the DD
shell wizard you can specify "Slab Penetrates Wall
Plane" (check box).”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am interested in any tips for
modeling the thermal impacts of the larger
projections. Thoughts? (I plan to use window
shading for the light/shading impacts.)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am hopeful that the analysis
will help convince the design team to incorporate
some insulation and thermal breaks!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kevin</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian Fountain bfountain at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://greensim.com" target="_blank">greensim.com</a>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mon Dec 6 11:45:18 PST 2010</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Previous message:
[Equest-users] balcony</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Next message: [Equest-users]
Shading</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In screen 4 of 25 of the DD
shell wizard you can specify "Slab
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Penetrates Wall Plane" (check
box). If you do, eQUEST created a new
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">wall type of height equal to
your slab thickness and composed of 1' of
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">concrete plus any slab edge
insulation you specify on the same wiz
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">screen. That provides a
parallel path for the heat transfer from the
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">balcony or slab edge. Not
exactly 2D heat transfer modelling -- but at
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">least you aren't ignoring the
effect of the slab edge or balcony.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1f497d">Kevin
Coleman, CEM, LEED AP</span></b><span
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