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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">To me the most interesting part of the report isn’t the conclusion that thermally broken balconies and slab edges give significantly better thermal performance (we all know that intuitively).
Instead it gives a way of back checking what I would consider to be “standard practice” for calculating area-weighted U-factor for these same assemblies using default ASHRAE U-values to sophisticated thermal model results. Here are my thoughts, checking my
calcs and comments appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Executive summary: It looks like our standard assembly performance tables and area-weighted U-factor calculations get us “close enough” to the results from this report that it doesn’t
seem to suggest we should switch methodologies. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Comparison calculation for steel-framed walls (stud insulation + exterior rigid):<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">For a 16” OC metal stud wall, R-12 Batt cavity insulation and R-5 continuous rigid insulation, the report states that the Effective R-value for
the wall + slab will be R-7.4.</span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> This is based on 8’8” floor-to-floor, and 8” slab.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Using ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Table A3.3 for steel framed walls, we would get an effective U-factor for the wall portion of U = 0.0785 (interpolating between the R-13 + R-11 batt values).
If we use Table A3.1A for the exposed slab edge (assuming 8” normal weight solid concrete walls), we get a U-factor of U = 0.740 for the slab edge.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Doing an area weighted U-factor calc</span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">: U<sub>eff</sub> = U<sub>1</sub>*A<sub>1</sub>+U<sub>2</sub>*A<sub>2</sub>/(A<sub>1</sub>+A<sub>2</sub>)
or in this case, factoring out the Length of the wall section we use: U<sub>1</sub>*H<sub>1</sub>+U<sub>2</sub>*H<sub>2</sub>/(H<sub>1</sub>+H<sub>2</sub>) = (0.0785*8 + 0.740*8/12)/(8+8/12) = 0.1294 or an
<span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">effective R-value of 7.73, which is pretty close to the R-7.4 claimed, a difference of about 4% in U-value</span>. Maybe I’m cynical, but to me that seems close enough.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I only spot checked this assembly, so maybe there is more impact with different construction types.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Another interesting tid-bit: Apparently the much vaunted fin-effect is actually pretty minimal. If you look at the results of the exposed slab-edge condition vs the full balcony fin-effect,
the balcony scenario actually shows slightly BETTER thermal performance. Odd. <br>
<img width="949" height="206" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image003.png@01CED972.79A92370"><br>
<img width="957" height="165" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image004.png@01CED972.79A92370"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Nathan Miller
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">-</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">PE, LEED<sup>®</sup>AP BD+C, CEM<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Mechanical Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013 1:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Griffin; 'Coleman, Kevin'; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab extending through wall<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Here’s a timely report on effective R-values of assemblies with slab/balcony thermal bridges:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.rdhbe.com/database/files/library/Balcony_and_Slab_Edge_Thermal_Bridges___1___R_values_and_Energy_Code_Canada__Sept_24_13.pdf">The Importance of Slab Edge and Balcony Thermal Bridges</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:black">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:#006600">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:black"> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">134 South Fitzhugh Street</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:green">Sustainability – the forest AND the trees.</span><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Griffin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013 4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Coleman, Kevin'; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab extending through wall<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Kevin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">I’m fairly sure eQUEST is not even going to closely approximate the heat loss/gain accurately unless you dial the loads in manually which means you have to calculate them by hand
first. I suggest referring to ASHRAE-D-RP-1365 for guidance on estimating the loads. The section you are interested in starts on page 35.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">David W. Griffin II<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Energy Analyst<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">ETC Group, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">801-278-1927 x 128<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Cell 480-736-2945<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><a href="mailto:dgriffin@etcgrp.com">dgriffin@etcgrp.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"><a href="http://www.etcgrp.com">www.etcgrp.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Energy Engineering for a Sustainable Future</span></b><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.5pt"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">1997 South 1100 East, Salt Lake City, UT 84106-4471
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Coleman, Kevin [<a href="mailto:kcoleman@nexant.com">mailto:kcoleman@nexant.com</a>]
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<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 04, 2013 11:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Slab extending through wall<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am evaluating a new 10-story hotel design that is proposing glass curtain walls and pre-tensioned concrete floors that project beyond the walls. On 3 sides the projections are minimal (6 inches). However, on one side, the projections
extend about 3 ft. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For the small projections, I intent to use the following method recommended in the thread below. “In screen 4 of 25 of the DD shell wizard you can specify "Slab Penetrates Wall Plane" (check box).”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am interested in any tips for modeling the thermal impacts of the larger projections. Thoughts? (I plan to use window shading for the light/shading impacts.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am hopeful that the analysis will help convince the design team to incorporate some insulation and thermal breaks!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kevin<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian Fountain bfountain at greensim.com <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mon Dec 6 11:45:18 PST 2010<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In screen 4 of 25 of the DD shell wizard you can specify "Slab
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Penetrates Wall Plane" (check box). If you do, eQUEST created a new
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">wall type of height equal to your slab thickness and composed of 1' of
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">concrete plus any slab edge insulation you specify on the same wiz
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">screen. That provides a parallel path for the heat transfer from the
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">balcony or slab edge. Not exactly 2D heat transfer modelling -- but at
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">least you aren't ignoring the effect of the slab edge or balcony.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1F497D">Kevin Coleman, CEM, LEED AP</span></b><span style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#000066"> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">”</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#000066">
</span><b><span style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#999999">Project Manager
</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">”</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#000066">
</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1F497D">Nexant, Inc.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#000066">
</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">”</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#999999"> Demand Management
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#999999">1232 Fourier Drive, Suite 125</span><span style="color:#000066">
</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">”</span><span style="color:#999999"> Madison, WI 53717 </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">”</span><span style="color:#999999"> 608.824.1230
</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#999999">”</span><span style="color:#999999">
</span><span style="color:#000066"> </span><u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:kcoleman@nexant.com">kcoleman@nexant.com</a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P
</span><span style="color:green">Please consider the environment before printing this email<b>
<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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