<div dir="ltr"><div>I think I am hitting a roadblock here, trying to get the necessary data to model the chillers. I have gone through the EDR document on simulating HVAC systems and other posts on modeling chillers here on the mailing list. I think I can get the part load data from the manufacturer.</div>
<div> </div><div>Trying to get the full load data has been difficult though. The chiller manufacturer tells me that if I want the full load capacity at reduced condenser entering and/or higher evaporator leaving temperatures, he can only provide up to about 5% higher capacity than design capacity. Beyond this he will need to change the expansion device in his selection software to get the total capacity. I don't believe changing the expansion device is the right way to go.</div>
<div> </div><div>I have attached a sample data sheet with various data points that I thought I should get from the manufacturers. The data points I have in the sheet are what will be practically seen in operation here. However they are all lower than the design temperatures of the chiller. I'm not sure if I am going in the right direction with this one.</div>
<div> </div><div>Any inputs are appreciated.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks,</div><div> </div><div>Sunil Nair</div><div><p><b><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:12pt">Ab Initio</span></b></p><p><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">TMA House, Plot No. 6, 2nd Floor,</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Main Road, Wagle Industrial Area,</span></p><p><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thane (West) - 400 604</span></p><p><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Ph: +91-22 - 3243 7023</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Cell: +91-8879595123</span></p><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">web: <a href="http://www.abinitio.co.in/" target="_blank"><font color="#0066cc">www.abinitio.co.in</font></a></span></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 7:25 PM, David Eldridge <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:DEldridge@grummanbutkus.com" target="_blank">DEldridge@grummanbutkus.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">You should be able to look at the manufacturer data plotted vs ECWT and load and determine if a single set of curves (one modeled chiller) or two are needed
to accurately model power usage by the chiller over the range of load. (if you can get the data)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">
</span></u><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:8pt"> </span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(36,64,97);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">
</span></u><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"> Sunil Nair [mailto:<a href="mailto:energymodel.sunil@gmail.com" target="_blank">energymodel.sunil@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 15, 2013 11:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Busman, Michael R<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Eldridge; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Question: Modeling Specific Chillers<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Dave and Mike,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Thanks for your inputs.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Mike,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, I am referring to the multistage chiller where the liquid is flashed to the inlet of the second stage impeller. As you have mentioned this process is internal to the chiller.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">My thought initially was I may have to model multiple compressors per circuit for a chiller without VFD. I did not find this option in eQUEST. As I think about it now, my case would be quite different from having
multiple compressors per circuit.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I am in the process of obtaining data points for the chiller from the manufacturer so I can input the data points into eQUEST.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I'll keep this thread updated.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Sincerely,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sunil Nair<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Ab Initio</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">TMA House, Plot No. 6, 2nd Floor,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Main Road, Wagle Industrial Area,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thane (West) - 400 604</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Ph: +91-22 - 3243 7023</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Cell: +91-8879595123</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">web:
<a href="http://www.abinitio.co.in" target="_blank">www.abinitio.co.in</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Busman, Michael R <<a href="mailto:MBusman@chevron.com" target="_blank">MBusman@chevron.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Sunil,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">My understanding of an economizer for a multi-stage centrifugal is that some of the liquid refrigerant
flashes as it passes through the expansion device. This flash gas, I believe is introduced to the input side of the second stage impeller. Since the economizer is internal to the chiller, one set of curves should be sufficient as there is only one mode of
operation as I understand it. You didn’t specify, so I’m assuming you are not referring to a water-side economizer.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">I haven’t custom defined a chiller yet in eQUEST, however, it appears that several performance data
points from the manufacturer are required for eQUEST to generate the curves if you select this method. The other is to generate your own curves. Many years ago when I used to work in VisualDOE, I found the calculation methodology to define chiller curves
from the Pacific Gas & Electric web site, which I used to set up a spreadsheet to calculate the curve coefficients. This was originally set up for constant speed chillers. A number of months ago I added a spreadsheet tab to handle variable speed chillers.
To create the 3 sets of curve coefficients, at least 10 full load data points at different chilled and condenser water temperatures were required from the manufacturer in order to map the compressor. There was no max or min limit for the part-load data points
as I recall.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">If you’d like a copy of the spreadsheet, I can email it to you, however, you might want to check
the eQUEST manual or DOE-2.2 reference manuals regarding directly entering data points into eQUEST and let the program figure out the curves for you.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">My best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Mike Busman</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">Michael R. Busman, CEM</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">Lead Project Engineer II</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">Chevron Energy Solutions</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">A Division of Chevron U.S.A., Inc.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">145 S. State College Blvd.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">Brea, CA 92821
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">Direct 714-671-3561</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">Fax 714-671-3438</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">eFax 866-420-0335 (Include my Full Name followed by "CAI:MHTZ" on Cover Sheet)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">Mobile 310-387-2083</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt"><a href="mailto:mbusman@chevron.com" target="_blank">mbusman@chevron.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Eldridge<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 14, 2013 9:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sunil Nair<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Question: Modeling Specific Chillers</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">When the chiller runs on economizer it will use a separate set of curves and be modeled as a distinct chiller.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">One set of curves will be difficult to model both modes of operation.<br>
<br>
DSE Mobile<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On Aug 14, 2013, at 11:34 AM, "Sunil Nair" <<a href="mailto:energymodel.sunil@gmail.com" target="_blank">energymodel.sunil@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I have a couple of questions with respect to modeling specific chillers.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">1) I am trying to model a centrifugal chiller with an economizer. The chiller in question is a centrifugal chiller running on R123 with an economizer installed to it. Do I just
need to get data from the chiller manufacturer and input the curves into the model? Is this the right way to go?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2) How do you model multi stage centrifugal chillers without VFD's?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sunil Nair<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Ab Initio</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">TMA House, Plot No. 6, 2nd Floor,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Main Road, Wagle Industrial Area,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Thane (West) - 400 604</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><a href="http://www.abinitio.co.in/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">www.abinitio.co.in</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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