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<font size="+1">In that case <font size="+1">I would do a major
simplification o<font size="+1">f the zoning based on the AHU
systems. <font size="+1">Interior walls inside a zone won't
have much i<font size="+1"><font size="+1">m</font>pact and
I would leave them out. </font></font>What I <font
size="+1">have found with the zones not lining up properly
is in some cases the model will freeze and not even run. Or
it generates pages of errors. Once the points/walls are
lined up the erro<font size="+1">r<font size="+1">s go
away. What is left is critical<font size="+1"> and the
noise is gone.</font><br>
<font size="+1">Energy studies are a totally different
ball game on existing buildings. Typically the first
thing you will have to do is get your model running
similar to the buildings current performance. You
will probably find that even more difficult. There is
lots of discussion on that as well in the archives.
Have fun.</font><br>
</font></font><font size="+1">Bruce</font><br>
</font></font></font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 23/08/2013 09:04 AM, Eric O'Neill
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Thanks Bruce, I
hear ya. In this particular case, this model is for an
existing building energy study, where the owner actually has
nearly up to date as-built dwgs (!), so I think we’re
talking apples and oranges. It’s a hospital (nearly all
clinic and office spaces are out of scope and have been
excluded from the model) and it seems that almost all AHU’s
have spaces that require continuous space pressure
relationship requirements, so one of the measures we’re
looking at is doing some unoccupied airflow reductions in
specific areas, which is why I’ve done a more detailed
zoning. However, zones don’t currently have temperature
setbacks and on this project we’re not planning on
recommending that, so my gut says there’s not enough heat
transfer between spaces at similar temperatures to justify
spending the time making sure everything lines up perfectly.
Bad assumption? Maybe I’ll test it out at some point when I
get a chance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial
Black","sans-serif"">Eric L. O'Neill, P.E.,
LEED AP<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Direct
608.785.3328 |</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial
Black","sans-serif""> </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial
Black","sans-serif";color:#99CC33">Michaels
Energy</span><span style="color:#595959"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Bruce Easterbrook [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric O'Neill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Expression Evaluation
Error<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">It will matter and in ways you
don't realize. It did generate errors. Just because you
can get equest to run doesn't mean it is giving you accurate
data. If you have an interior wall between the zone you
thought was against an exterior wall then you are not
getting proper timed heat transfer into that space from the
exterior wall. You will also have a space which is not
conditioned that will generate under heated/cooled hours
because you don't know it is there. The general heat
loss/gain through the exteriors walls will be reasonably
accurate but your ability to keep the interior spaces under
control will be compromised. You aren't sure what you have,
adiabatic, interior, exterior? What about air walls? <br>
I suppose my main point is efficiency and approach to
whatever problem you want data on. You did a fair bit of
work tracing in many of the interior walls. Why do that if
you don't need to? Just put in the perimeter and let equest
auto zone it, auto size it for you, press the button and you
are done. Part of using equest, before you get inputting
data, is to determine what you want out of it. If you have
a simple request for a general basic heat loss/gain then
simplify your model in ways you can minimize the work you
put in to get you the results you want. Keep in mind also
that if the project continues on, the questions will get
more pointed and complicated. So with that in mind keep
copies, still in the wizards, you can go back to later and
refine further. If you want a ball park, do a ball park. A
few hours with a spread sheet can do that. The other thing
that happens is when you pass this information on other
designers they will refine their design, thoughts and almost
surely make changes. When they lob one back into your court
it might be totally different so you don't want to have a
ton of work into your model that doesn't accomplish
anything, but you want to be set up so you can maximize what
you have done and use it going forward. One thing you can
bet on is the architect has sold the building on the street
view. The perimeter is going to be pretty much fixed. The
interior floor plan fairly fixed. As for zoning and how to
heat and cool the space, totally wide open with ASHRAE 90.x
in mind.<br>
Modelling was an extra, which is becoming a requirement and
soon to be a must. No one wants to pay for it or pay what
it is worth. Your modelling has to be as efficient as the
building you are designing. Taking an hour, maybe 2, at the
start, looking at the building and the questions the other
members of the team are asking and refining your approach is
time well spent. Even a simple model will take days to get
input, running, debugged and checked. An input error might
take days to figure out and you are over budget. It is the
foundation to the whole process. <br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 22/08/2013 2:54 PM, Eric O'Neill
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Bruce and
Matthew,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">My
understanding of defining the vertices is that the way
they line up only affects how the wall constructions are
defined, and shouldn’t result in an error. For instance,
for zone boundaries defined near an exterior wall where
the vertices don’t line up exactly, eQUEST may define them
as an interior wall, or possibly an exterior wall with no
windows (I haven’t taken the time to discern what the
ruleset is for that). Internal zones that don’t line up
perfectly are usually defined as adiabatic rather than as
an interior wall construction, but the space and zones
themselves don’t really care if they line up or even
overlap. For my purposes, I took the time to do the
exterior walls correctly, but it’s not worth the
additional time to get the interior walls perfect (this
isn’t for LEED or anything quite to that level of detail)
for every single space.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">As an
example, you can set up and run a brief model on a
building like below, and it will fully simulate without
errors, despite obvious overlapping floorspaces and walls
that don’t line up.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Normally I
take the time to line things up well, so I could be wrong
on this. Am I misunderstanding what you guys are trying to
say, or (more importantly) am I missing something wrong
with this approach?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">I tried
Robby’s suggestion - I duplicated that shell, and on one
copy I deleted the north zones, and the other I deleted
the south zones, and the errors have disappeared.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Thanks
everyone!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black ,
sans-serif","serif"">Eric L. O'Neill, P.E.,
LEED AP<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Direct
608.785.3328 |</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black ,
sans-serif","serif""> </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Michaels Energy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.06080807.07080807@bellnet.ca" height="445"
width="722"><img id="Picture_x0020_2"
src="cid:part2.06030304.02050704@bellnet.ca" height="475"
width="383"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Bruce Easterbrook [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 22, 2013 11:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric O'Neill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Expression
Evaluation Error</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">I would say some of your vertices
are not lining up. Even visually I can see a few
potential problem points for you. They have to be exact.
Nothing can overlap nor can there be any gaps. eQuest is
very picky, you pretty much have to be exact to 3 decimal
places. It may sound like a lot of work but I would print
out your CAD plan and mark your points on it. When I do
my perimeter I add extra points on the exterior walls
where the zones intersect. It gives you something to snap
to</span> <span style="font-size:13.5pt">
when you are defining your zones later. When defining
your zone polygons you can also directly edit the number
if you can't get the point to snap exactly. The only snap
I use is the CAD drawing. One other thing I do is make an
eQuest layer on the CAD drawing and simplify the plan to
the perimeter and the zones. It makes it easier in the
long run to keep track of all the vertices. There are too
many potential places to snap to on an architectural
drawing.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng<br>
Abode Engineering</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 22/08/2013 11:55 AM, Eric O'Neill
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">This one
has me stumped, and it looks like it’s been an issue
before, so I’m hoping someone has an idea. I was
building a model in the wizard and went to save-as
before something got screwy, and it appeared I was too
late. I got an error for multiple zones that read
“MULTIPLIER in <i>XXXzone</i> has Expression Evaluation
Error: Invalid BDL reference”, followed up by a bunch of
zone errors stating that they were “referenced but not
defined”. I did some searching and came up with a few
hits, but no solutions (that I could see). I bit the
bullet and went back and tried to rezone it from my last
save, and while the error seems to occur for different
zones, I still got it. I went through and tried to purge
out some AHU’s and spaces that may have pushed me up
against some limit I’m not aware of, but nothing’s
helped so far.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Below is
what I’m currently zoning, and you can see that in the
building footprint screen, there are zones that I’ve
defined that aren’t showing up. I’m attaching the pd2.
Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="Picture_x0020_6"
src="cid:part5.01000005.04070003@bellnet.ca" border="0"
height="544" width="407"><img id="Picture_x0020_7"
src="cid:part6.02090406.08060301@bellnet.ca" border="0"
height="464" width="388"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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P.E., LEED AP</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#595959"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Managing
Engineer - Implementation |
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Michaels Energy</span><span
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