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<font size="+1">It will matter and in w<font size="+1">ays you don't
realize. It did generate errors. Just because you can get e<font
size="+1">quest to run do<font size="+1">es</font>n't mea<font
size="+1">n it is giving you accurate data. If you have an
interior wall between the zone you thought was against an
exterior wall then you are not getting proper timed heat <font
size="+1">transfer into <font size="+1">that space from
the exterior wall. You will also have a space which is
not conditioned that will generate <font size="+1">under
heated<font size="+1">/cooled hours because you don't
know it is th<font size="+1">ere</font>. The <font
size="+1">general heat loss/gain through the
exteriors walls will be reasonably accurate but
your ability to keep the interior spaces under
control will be <font size="+1">compromised</font>.<font
size="+1"> You aren't sure what you have, a<font
size="+1">diabatic, interior, e<font size="+1">xterior?<font
size="+1"> What about air walls? </font></font></font><br>
<font size="+1">I suppose my main point is
efficiency and approach to whatever problem
you want data on. You did a fair bit of work
tracing in m<font size="+1">any of </font>the
interior walls. Why do that if you don't need
to<font size="+1">?</font> <font size="+1">Just
put in the perimeter and let equest auto
zone it, auto size it for you, press the
button and you are done. Part of using
equest, before you get inputting data, is t<font
size="+1">o determine what you want out of
it. If you have a simple request for a
general basic heat loss<font size="+1">/gain
then simplify your model in ways you can
minimiz<font size="+1">e the work you
put in to get you the results you
want. Keep in mind also that if the
project continues on, the questions <font
size="+1">will get more pointed and
complicated. So with that in mind
keep copies, still in the wizards,
you can go back to later and refine
further. If you want a ball park,
do a <font size="+1">ball park. A
few hours with a spread sheet can
do that. The other thing that
happens is when you pass this
information on other designers
they will refine the<font
size="+1">ir design, thoughts
and <font size="+1">almost
surely make changes. When
they lob one back into your
court it might be totally
different so you don't want to
have a ton of work into your
model that doesn't accomplish
anything<font size="+1">, but
you want to be s<font
size="+1">et up so you can
maximize what you have
done and use it going
forward. One thing you
can bet on i<font
size="+1">s the
architect has sold the
building on the street
view. The perim<font
size="+1">eter is
going to be <font
size="+1">pretty
much</font> fixed.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
The interior floor plan fairly fixed. As for
zoning and how to heat and cool the space,
totally wide open<font size="+1"> with ASHRAE
90.x in mind.</font><br>
<font size="+1">Modelling was an extra, which is
becoming a requirement and soon to be a must.
No one wants to pay for it<font size="+1"> or
pay what it is worth. Your modelling has to
be as efficient as the building you are
designing. Ta<font size="+1">king a</font>n
hour<font size="+1">, maybe 2,</font> at the
start, looking at the building and the
questions the other me<font size="+1">m<font
size="+1">bers of the team are asking
and refining your approach is time well
spent. Even a simple model will take
days to get input, running, debugged and
checked. An input error mi<font
size="+1">ght take days to figure out<font
size="+1"> and you are over budget.
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font
size="+1"><font size="+1"><font size="+1"><font size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font size="+1"><font size="+1"><font size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font size="+1"><font size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font size="+1"><font size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font
size="+1"><font
size="+1">It
is the
foundation to
the whole
process. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font><font size="+1">Bruc<font
size="+1">e Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
<font size="+1"><font size="+1">Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 22/08/2013 2:54 PM, Eric O'Neill
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:3E0EBBB7260AE24CB0962ECC6B83903402146964@THEWHO.michaelsengineering.local"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Bruce and
Matthew,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">My
understanding of defining the vertices is that the way they
line up only affects how the wall constructions are defined,
and shouldn’t result in an error. For instance, for zone
boundaries defined near an exterior wall where the vertices
don’t line up exactly, eQUEST may define them as an interior
wall, or possibly an exterior wall with no windows (I
haven’t taken the time to discern what the ruleset is for
that). Internal zones that don’t line up perfectly are
usually defined as adiabatic rather than as an interior wall
construction, but the space and zones themselves don’t
really care if they line up or even overlap. For my
purposes, I took the time to do the exterior walls
correctly, but it’s not worth the additional time to get the
interior walls perfect (this isn’t for LEED or anything
quite to that level of detail) for every single space.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">As an example,
you can set up and run a brief model on a building like
below, and it will fully simulate without errors, despite
obvious overlapping floorspaces and walls that don’t line
up.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Normally I take
the time to line things up well, so I could be wrong on
this. Am I misunderstanding what you guys are trying to say,
or (more importantly) am I missing something wrong with this
approach?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">I tried Robby’s
suggestion - I duplicated that shell, and on one copy I
deleted the north zones, and the other I deleted the south
zones, and the errors have disappeared.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Thanks
everyone!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial
Black","sans-serif"">Eric L. O'Neill, P.E.,
LEED AP<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Direct
608.785.3328 |</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial
Black","sans-serif""> </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial
Black","sans-serif";color:#99CC33">Michaels
Energy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.01030901.01090903@bellnet.ca" width="722"
height="445">
<img id="Picture_x0020_2"
src="cid:part2.09010401.00010605@bellnet.ca" width="383"
height="475"><span style="color:#595959"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Bruce Easterbrook [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 22, 2013 11:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric O'Neill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Expression Evaluation
Error<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">I would say some of your vertices
are not lining up. Even visually I can see a few potential
problem points for you. They have to be exact. Nothing can
overlap nor can there be any gaps. eQuest is very picky,
you pretty much have to be exact to 3 decimal places. It
may sound like a lot of work but I would print out your CAD
plan and mark your points on it. When I do my perimeter I
add extra points on the exterior walls where the zones
intersect. It gives you something to snap to</span> <span
style="font-size:13.5pt">
when you are defining your zones later. When defining your
zone polygons you can also directly edit the number if you
can't get the point to snap exactly. The only snap I use is
the CAD drawing. One other thing I do is make an eQuest
layer on the CAD drawing and simplify the plan to the
perimeter and the zones. It makes it easier in the long run
to keep track of all the vertices. There are too many
potential places to snap to on an architectural drawing.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng<br>
Abode Engineering</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 22/08/2013 11:55 AM, Eric O'Neill
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">This one has
me stumped, and it looks like it’s been an issue before,
so I’m hoping someone has an idea. I was building a model
in the wizard and went to save-as before something got
screwy, and it appeared I was too late. I got an error for
multiple zones that read “MULTIPLIER in <i>XXXzone</i>
has Expression Evaluation Error: Invalid BDL reference”,
followed up by a bunch of zone errors stating that they
were “referenced but not defined”. I did some searching
and came up with a few hits, but no solutions (that I
could see). I bit the bullet and went back and tried to
rezone it from my last save, and while the error seems to
occur for different zones, I still got it. I went through
and tried to purge out some AHU’s and spaces that may have
pushed me up against some limit I’m not aware of, but
nothing’s helped so far.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">Below is what
I’m currently zoning, and you can see that in the building
footprint screen, there are zones that I’ve defined that
aren’t showing up. I’m attaching the pd2. Any thoughts or
ideas would be appreciated!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="Picture_x0020_6"
src="cid:part3.01070601.03090102@bellnet.ca" width="407"
height="544"><img id="Picture_x0020_7"
src="cid:part4.00020008.01060408@bellnet.ca" width="388"
height="464"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<v:imagedata src="mailbox:///C:/Users/Bruce/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/0ei3sjqs.BruceGW/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=320674722&header=quotebody&part=1.4&filename=image003.png" o:title="part3.02090108.04050001@bellnet" />
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v:shapes="_x0000_s1026" width="82" height="72"
align="left"><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Eric L. O'Neill,
P.E., LEED AP</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#595959"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Managing
Engineer - Implementation |
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Michaels Energy</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#595959"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Phone
608.785.3328 | Cell 608.792.7721</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#595959"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
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