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How confident are you that the GSHX is actually large enough to meet
all of the annual heating loads? Depending on the building type,
size, and climate, seems like it is reasonable for the reviewer to
be skeptical. I've worked on a LEED-Nc v2.2 commercial building
project where I arrived at the same conclusion, but it took a lot of
extra work to convince myself that the GSHX model inputs,
loop/equipment controls, and overall outputs (including hourly
results) were all reasonable (LEED reviewer didn't seem to have an
issue with it in this case). Have you tried clearly
illustrating/justifying the inputs for the DOE-2 GSHX model? There
are other programs available that you can input loads and GSHX
performance parameters, and it will tell you what the average loop
temperatures are over time. I typically use these for
comparison/validation of the DOE-2 model results. Perhaps
providing a secondary analysis of the GSHX would support (or
potentially rebuke) your conclusion? <br>
<br>
-David<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/15/2013 10:59 AM, Nick Caton
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
it were me, I’d just add the inconsequential boiler,
state/show I did so, and move on. Typically less effort
than building an impenetrable case to someone being
contrarian.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">To
bullet #3: I think not for the standard output reports, but
loop entering and exiting temperatures are options in the
custom hourly output report dialog, which I believe you can
assign to any loop type. This will put out a CSV you can
use with a spreadsheet software of your choosing to quickly
come up with minimums/maximums over the simulation.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Attached
is a past thread with a spelled out / illustrated procedure
for setting up a custom hourly report, in case that’s
helpful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK
CATON, P.E.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR
ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith
& Boucher Engineers</span><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe,
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct
913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax
913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
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</span></u><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hansen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 15, 2013 11:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kathryn Kerns; Steve Woolery;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Issue with
EQuest Software's Ability to ModelBoilers on Ground
Loops<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
can absolutely add a boiler to a GSHP loop. Just add a
boiler, and when asked which HW loop to assign it to, you
can pick the GSHP Loop (as long as that loop is a "Water
Loop HP" loop).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
think more than likely this is the reason you are getting
the comments you are. This reviewer may know that you CAN
add a boiler to a GSHP loop, which is the reason for comment
#4.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
doubt GBCI is trying to eliminate eQuest as a modeling
option.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also,
printing out hourly reports from an eQuest run is often
helpful in proving your case (whatever case that may be).
If you can show, via hourly reports, that the heat picked up
by the GSHP heat exchanger exceeds the heating load for all
8,760 hours of the day, then case closed...that's all you
need to submit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:teal">GHT
Limited<br>
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">James
Hansen, P.E., LEED AP</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Senior Associate<br>
1010 N. Glebe Road, Suite 200<br>
Arlington, VA 22201-4749<br>
703-243-1200 (office)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">703-338-5754
(cell)<br>
703-276-1376 (fax)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ghtltd.com/"
title="http://www.ghtltd.com/">www.ghtltd.com</a></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kathryn Kerns<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 15, 2013 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steve Woolery; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] LEED Issue with EQuest
Software's Ability to ModelBoilers on Ground Loops<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div id="idOWAReplyText29376">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Everyone, I have
received a snarky comment from the LEED reviewers
regarding eQuest and not being able to model back-up
boilers on a ground heat pump loop. See below. The
ground loop is large enough not to generate any
temperature low alarm messages, the ground loop pump
flow never reaches 100% flow except for 1 hour and the
ground loop heating capacity is never exceeded. These
facts do not appear to be a good enough explanation not
modeling the back up gas boiler. </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">My questions for
the group are:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">1. Is there a way
to add a boiler or some additional heat source to a
ground loop in eQuest? As far as I know the only work
around I have discovered is to represent the ground loop
by creating a water loop and adding a magical no energy
consuming boiler and fluid cooler to a heat pump water
loop and change the water loop parameters to match
ground loop parameters. Then you can add normal boilers
that will start if the non-energy consuming ground loop
boiler is too small for the building heat load. I
offered this option to the LEED reviewer and they
replied that it was not an established work around.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">2. If there is no
way to attach a boiler to a ground loop in eQuest, is
there some established work around that somebody has
used that was accepted by a LEED reviewer?</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">3. Is there
anything in the reports that lists the maximum and
minimum ground loop temperatures? I have been unable to
locate it.
</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">4. Does anyone have
an written explanation to answer "<em>If this
</em>[the boiler] <em>is not being modeled in the
energy modeling software then provide a thorough
explanation for why it cannot be modeled. "?</em></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">5.</span></em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> Does this sound
like LEED is trying to eliminate eQuest software, and if
so, is there anything we can do about it? "<em>in the
future the software selected to simulate the building
components must be able to model those components "</em></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">The project team
could possibly demonstrate that the boiler would not
operate through a series of engineering calculations,
some other software that could possibly simulate the
building’s loop temperatures, or through a thorough
explanation of how the system operation prevents the
boiler from operating. In short the project team must
demonstrate that the boiler will not operate, not just
say that is the case without presenting some evidence.
If this is not being modeled in the energy modeling
software then provide a thorough explanation for why
it cannot be modeled. In the future the software
selected to simulate the building components must be
able to model those components or use an exceptional
calculation (work around) to do so (G2.2). </span></em><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><span style="color:black">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
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