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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">In my original post I said "Since LEED
requires compliance with ASHRAE 90.1 Mandatory measures...". I
believe this is correct, at least as far as Architectural,
Mechanical and Electrical mandatory requirements are concerned.<br>
<br>
And yes, I realize that there are exceptions for doors not used as
entries (emergency only or exit only?) and for doors leading into
spaces less than 3000 sq. ft. Also for buildings less than four
stories under 10,000 sq. ft. in CZ 3 or 4. And for mild
climates. I do not believe any of these would apply to the
building I am working on, but I do appreciate the options.
Including revolving doors!<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068
===============================================
</pre>
On 7/31/2013 11:50 AM, Nick Caton wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:ECDF361A89E5FA479BE7E64C658B52051C1C4209@SANDBINC4.sbi.smithboucher.com"
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<title>[Bldg-sim] Vestibule Modeling</title>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
concur with the advice to read the requirements more
carefully – in almost no case is a vestibule required at
every door, when they are required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Take
care and recognize that an Appendix G model is NOT a method
to show code compliance. It’s a procedure for benchmarking
the building performance for design which exceeds the
minimum requirements of the standard. The first sections of
Appendix G provide a concise overview.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
can evaluate the effect a vestibule or not as already
discussed – in function this should simply reduce scheduled
infiltration. That said, I do not believe any Appendix G
model should have the proposed and baseline models differing
with respect to having a vestibule. I think table G3.1 is
pretty clear that the baseline model is to match the
proposed with respect to space/thermal block configuration
and arrangement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Finally,
just to drive an extra wedge into the commentary – while the
specified mandatory sections (#.4…) ARE required of the
design for a LEED project, to pass EAp2, in my humble
opinion it’s incorrect (or at least a stretch) to say LEED
requires demonstrating compliance with 90.1.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
sum, to the extent vestibules are required (review the
sections and exceptions carefully), a LEED project must by
design include them in the proposed design. In turn, the
proposed model should incorporate the vestibule in the form
of a distinct thermal block (zone/space), to match the
actual design. In turn, the same edits should be applied to
the baseline model as it’s supposed to match the proposed
model in this regard. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
the vestibules will be designed to be conditioned by the
same systems handling the surrounding spaces, you might make
the case that it’s a reasonable thing to not model them
explicitly as a separated space (modeler has the prerogative
to identify and assert where such spatial approximations are
appropriate), but in preliminary LEED submission I’d advise
making that decision and case clear to the reviewer in your
documentation so if it isn’t acceptable you have the
opportunity to make the corrections per above prior to final
submission.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK
CATON, P.E.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith
& Boucher Engineers</span><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe,
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct
913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax
913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Dirkes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RobertWichert';
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>';
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Vestibule Modeling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Did
you notice the 7 exceptions to section 5.4.3.4? One of them
may apply to you…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As
far as modeling goes, a vestibule is principally an
infiltration control technique, so I suppose that you could
argue for reduced infiltration when vestibules are present.
I am unaware of any research or other information about how
they may affect infiltration. Since infiltration is such a
guessing game, I never apply any special curves for
vestibules.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">p.s.,
the IECC 2012 (Int’l Energy Conservation Code) includes
mandatory envelope and infiltration testing and criteria.
This will probably be a game changer for the construction
industry in areas that adopt this code and will definitely
affect the energy models prepared for those projects.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0A3782">James
V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3434F4"><br>
</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com/"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#BFBFBF">www.buildingperformanceteam.com</span></b></a></span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#BFBFBF">
<br>
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#548DD4">Energy
Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#778188"><br>
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#778188">1631
Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA<br>
616 450 8653<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rosenberg, Michael I<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RobertWichert';
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>';
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Vestibule Modeling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Any of the
mandatory requirements in Standard 90.1 must be included in
your building design and cannot be traded off using a
performance approach.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
______________________<br>
<br>
Michael Rosenberg, CEM, LEED AP<br>
Senior Research Scientist<br>
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE<br>
<br>
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory<br>
2032 Todd Street<br>
Eugene, OR 97405<br>
(541) 844-1960<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnnl.gov">michael.rosenberg@pnnl.gov</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.pnnl.gov">www.pnnl.gov</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From: </b>RobertWichert [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robert@wichert.org">robert@wichert.org</a>]<br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, July 30, 2013 08:08 AM Pacific Standard
Time<br>
<b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Bldg-sim] Vestibule Modeling<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I see that ASHRAE 90.1
requires a vestibule in most cases, but I don't<br>
know if it is modeled or if it is just mandatory. It would
seem to me<br>
that if it was modeled, showing compliance using modeling,
without a<br>
vestibule, would be OK (you would make it up somewhere else
in the<br>
envelope). Does anybody know if the vestibule is modeled
anywhere, and<br>
how to take it out or put it in?<br>
<br>
Since LEED requires compliance with ASHRAE 90.1 Mandatory
measures, this<br>
makes a vestibule a mandatory requirement unless I can model
it with and<br>
without. If this is even possible.<br>
<br>
Otherwise we must put in a vestibule to comply with LEED.<br>
<br>
<br>
Is this correct? Does anybody have other thoughts or
ideas? We have a<br>
very efficient building, modeled without the vestibule in
Climate Zone<br>
3B. I would think that we could take a heating penalty and
not install<br>
a vestibule AT EVERY DOOR.<br>
<br>
<br>
I appreciate your thinking about this.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C<br>
+1 916 966 9060<br>
FAX +1 916 966 9068<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
===============================================<br>
<br>
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