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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">In my original post I said "Since LEED
      requires compliance with ASHRAE 90.1 Mandatory measures...".  I
      believe this is correct, at least as far as Architectural,
      Mechanical and Electrical mandatory requirements are concerned.<br>
      <br>
      And yes, I realize that there are exceptions for doors not used as
      entries (emergency only or exit only?) and for doors leading into
      spaces less than 3000 sq. ft.  Also for buildings less than four
      stories under 10,000 sq. ft. in CZ 3 or 4.  And for mild
      climates.  I do not believe any of these would apply to the
      building I am working on, but I do appreciate the options. 
      Including revolving doors!<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068







===============================================
</pre>
      On 7/31/2013 11:50 AM, Nick Caton wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:ECDF361A89E5FA479BE7E64C658B52051C1C4209@SANDBINC4.sbi.smithboucher.com"
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      <title>[Bldg-sim] Vestibule Modeling</title>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
            concur with the advice to read the requirements more
            carefully – in almost no case is a vestibule required at
            every door, when they are required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Take
            care and recognize that an Appendix G model is NOT a method
            to show code compliance.  It’s a procedure for benchmarking
            the building performance for design which exceeds the
            minimum requirements of the standard.  The first sections of
            Appendix G provide a concise overview.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
            can evaluate the effect a vestibule or not as already
            discussed – in function this should simply reduce scheduled
            infiltration.  That said, I do not believe any Appendix G
            model should have the proposed and baseline models differing
            with respect to having a vestibule.  I think table G3.1 is
            pretty clear that the baseline model is to match the
            proposed with respect to space/thermal block configuration
            and arrangement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Finally,
            just to drive an extra wedge into the commentary – while the
            specified mandatory sections (#.4…) ARE required of the
            design for a LEED project, to pass EAp2, in my humble
            opinion it’s incorrect (or at least a stretch) to say LEED
            requires demonstrating compliance with 90.1.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
            sum, to the extent vestibules are required (review the
            sections and exceptions carefully), a LEED project must by
            design include them in the proposed design.  In turn, the
            proposed model should incorporate the vestibule in the form
            of a distinct thermal block (zone/space), to match the
            actual design.  In turn, the same edits should be applied to
            the baseline model as it’s supposed to match the proposed
            model in this regard.  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
            the vestibules will be designed to be conditioned by the
            same systems handling the surrounding spaces, you might make
            the case that it’s a reasonable thing to not model them
            explicitly as a separated space (modeler has the prerogative
            to identify and assert where such spatial approximations are
            appropriate), but in preliminary LEED submission I’d advise
            making that decision and case clear to the reviewer in your
            documentation so if it isn’t acceptable you have the
            opportunity to make the corrections per above prior to final
            submission. 
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
                id="Picture_x0020_1"
                src="cid:part1.00020605.02010008@wichert.org"
                alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" height="37"
                width="119"></span><b><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
                BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
                BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus
                BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK
                CATON, P.E.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR
              ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith
              & Boucher Engineers</span><span
              style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501
              west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe,
              ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct
              913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax
              913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
                moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.smithboucher.com"
                title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
              </span></u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Dirkes<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:25 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> 'RobertWichert';
                '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>';
                '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>'<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Vestibule Modeling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Did
            you notice the 7 exceptions to section 5.4.3.4?  One of them
            may apply to you…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As
            far as modeling goes, a vestibule is principally an
            infiltration control technique, so I suppose that you could
            argue for reduced infiltration when vestibules are present. 
            I am unaware of any research or other information about how
            they may affect infiltration.  Since infiltration is such a
            guessing game, I never apply any special curves for
            vestibules.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">p.s.,
            the IECC 2012 (Int’l Energy Conservation Code) includes
            mandatory envelope and infiltration testing and criteria. 
            This will probably be a game changer for the construction
            industry in areas that adopt this code and will definitely
            affect the energy models prepared for those projects.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0A3782">James
                V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3434F4"><br>
              </span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com/"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#BFBFBF">www.buildingperformanceteam.com</span></b></a></span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#BFBFBF">
                <br>
              </span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#548DD4">Energy
                Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#778188"><br>
              </span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#778188">1631
              Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA<br>
              616 450 8653<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
                [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rosenberg, Michael I<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:16 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> 'RobertWichert';
                '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>';
                '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>'<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Vestibule Modeling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Any of the
          mandatory requirements in Standard 90.1 must be included in
          your building design and cannot be traded off using a
          performance approach.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          ____<br>
          <br>
          ______________________<br>
          <br>
          Michael Rosenberg, CEM, LEED AP<br>
          Senior Research Scientist<br>
          ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE<br>
          <br>
          Pacific Northwest National Laboratory<br>
          2032 Todd Street<br>
          Eugene, OR 97405<br>
          (541) 844-1960<br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:michael.rosenberg@pnnl.gov">michael.rosenberg@pnnl.gov</a><br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.pnnl.gov">www.pnnl.gov</a><br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          -----Original Message-----<br>
          <b>From: </b>RobertWichert [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:robert@wichert.org">robert@wichert.org</a>]<br>
          <b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, July 30, 2013 08:08 AM Pacific Standard
          Time<br>
          <b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>;
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
          <b>Subject: </b>[Bldg-sim] Vestibule Modeling<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I see that ASHRAE 90.1
            requires a vestibule in most cases, but I don't<br>
            know if it is modeled or if it is just mandatory.  It would
            seem to me<br>
            that if it was modeled, showing compliance using modeling,
            without a<br>
            vestibule, would be OK (you would make it up somewhere else
            in the<br>
            envelope).  Does anybody know if the vestibule is modeled
            anywhere, and<br>
            how to take it out or put it in?<br>
            <br>
            Since LEED requires compliance with ASHRAE 90.1 Mandatory
            measures, this<br>
            makes a vestibule a mandatory requirement unless I can model
            it with and<br>
            without.  If this is even possible.<br>
            <br>
            Otherwise we must put in a vestibule to comply with LEED.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Is this correct?  Does anybody have other thoughts or
            ideas?  We have a<br>
            very efficient building, modeled without the vestibule in
            Climate Zone<br>
            3B.  I would think that we could take a heating penalty and
            not install<br>
            a vestibule AT EVERY DOOR.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            I appreciate your thinking about this.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            --<br>
            Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C<br>
            +1 916 966 9060<br>
            FAX +1 916 966 9068<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            ===============================================<br>
            <br>
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