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<font size="+1">Hi Kim,<br>
<font size="+1">I haven't done a CHP eQuest project yet <font
size="+1">so I may be off base here. I think the way you are
trying to split the electrical generation</font></font> and
heat produced is going to cause you problems. eQuest is a
thermodynamic box. You <font size="+1">should have either
external systems like district plants</font> or internal systems
like boilers. Trying to split this CHP generator up the way you
are trying to do is going to be difficult as you are e<font
size="+1">xperiencing but I also think your results have a majo<font
size="+1">r likelihood<font size="+1"> of <font size="+1">giving
you</font> invalid numbers.<font size="+1"> Your CHP is a
district plant and should be treated as such.<br>
<font size="+1">I'm not sure of your u<font size="+1">ltimate
goal, the building itself or the plant, I assume it is
the building<font size="+1"> mainly<font size="+1">,
then showing the advantages of integrating it into
a CHP district plant. This idea <font size="+1">is
one which should be pursued more. Typical
electrical generation <font size="+1">mostly
has an efficiency below 40% due to all the <font
size="+1">low gra<font size="+1">de heat
being dumped. If you put all this heat to
work you <font size="+1">can get your
efficiency into the 60 to 80% range
depending on how well you get everything
integrated. This is the true problem,
loading the CHP plant effectively, which
will determine your overall efficiency.<br>
<font size="+1">I would do the building
separately, it is stand alone anyw<font
size="+1">ay and eQuest will
function pro<font size="+1">perly
and give you good results. If you
want to do the plant as well then
you have to look at it<font
size="+1">'s "box" <font
size="+1">of which <font
size="+1">your building is
one load of a few or many.
Your building <font
size="+1">could become a
process load as part of
the CHP system w<font
size="+1">ith an
electrical schedule and
a heat cool<font
size="+1"> schedule.
We do <font size="+1">know
how to make cold
water with a heat
flow so your heating
and cooling loads
could load the CHP
waste heat side year
round. I don't
think you would get
a proper analysis of
the <font size="+1">CHP
system unless you
looked at all the
loads and
schedules on it.
The CHP plant <font
size="+1">overall
efficiency i<font
size="+1">s
totally
dependent on
how evenly you
load it and
how well you
match the
electrical
load and the
heat rejection<font
size="+1">
consumption.<br>
<font
size="+1">If
your building<font
size="+1">s
are all
similar you
could use the
results from
your one
building to
model the
other ones on
the CHP
system. The
area you will
have trouble
with will be
the <font
size="+1">building
shoulder
seasons when
economizers
can take care
of most or all
of the
buildings
heating and
cooling
needs. With
cheaper h<font
size="+1">ot</font>
and cold water
you may ti<font
size="+1">ghten
the economize<font
size="+1">rs
operati<font
size="+1">ng
range and l<font
size="+1">oad
the CHP
better. The
penalty on the
building might
be more than
made up for in
gain of CHP
plant.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
<font
size="+1">CHP
plants<font
size="+1"> <font
size="+1">mo<font
size="+1">st
times don't
operate in
isolation.
You may find
it an
advantage to
sell some of
the power
outside the
CHP box to
balance the
electrical and
waste heat
better. That
is what a
model is for,
exploring
possibilities.</font></font></font></font>
CHP plants are
a great
extension of
using gas to
generate elect<font
size="+1">ricity
i<font
size="+1">f
they are built
close to where
the power is
being consumed<font
size="+1"> and
if you do it
right you on<font
size="+1">ly
need half the
p<font
size="+1">lants.</font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font
size="+1">Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
<font size="+1">Abo<font size="+1">de Engineering<br>
<br>
</font></font></font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/06/2013 10:35 AM, DongEun Kim
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFdJG-ieVeSTwoctbi6085dEeghPMEy3uXr6MfqmjUm=r8Gm0w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>Thank you very much Bill and James for your insights !</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#000000">What I still can't understand is...</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">when I modeled the gas turbine
generator, I specified the HIR(I put 2.5 as the actual CHP
plant data suggests 40% of electric generation efficiency) and
"Frac Input Recoverable from Exhaust" at the 'Loop
attachment.' And I chose "track thermal load(this building
uses District Hot Water from a offsite CHP plant for its
heating, and I am applying Opt2 of DES guideline,
directly applying generator in the model)." </font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">The fraction of total thermal
recovery(report PS-A) to the total fuel consumed by
generator matches the fraction I put in the "Frac Input
Recoverable from Exhaust." However, the fraction of
total electricity generated(report PS-C) to the total fuel is
about 4% (even though I put 2.5 for the HIR)..which is too
small even considering the non-linear relationship between <font
face="Calibri" size="3">GTG electrical and thermal output.
Also, I applied a flat curve for the generator per DES
guideline, Monitoring. There even were some engineers who
advised me to put 0.25 for the HIR for the generator to get
the 40% of electricity generation to the total fuel input. </font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri" size="3">Anyhow, I followed your leads,
and tried to size the generator to have the capacity(KW) that
exactly matches the building thermal(heating) peak load(PS-H).
Then I made generator electric meter mode to be "run at
maximum" to achieve higher efficiency for elec generation as
well as thermal recovery efficiency.</font></div>
<div>Well..luckily.. It gives me the right thermal recovery
efficiency(total heat recovered/total fuel input) and
electricity generation efficiency(total electricity
generation/total fuel input) as a result.</div>
<div>
And I don't think it will be problematic for the generator to
'run at maximum' because I have to re-calculate the electricity
and the heat supply to the building according to the DES
guideline App.D anyway.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What do you think about the idea of running the appropriately
sized generator at "maximum" mode to achieve high, steady elec
generation efficiency?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I need your insightful remarks again :)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thank you in advance!</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kim</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/6/18 James Hess <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:JHess@tmecorp.com"
target="_blank">JHess@tmecorp.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">This
response will target specifically the thermal tracking
option for cogeneration systems, with regards to gas
turbine engines/generators (GTG).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">FYI,
based on data I have analyzed previously from a major
GTG manufacturer (on the Southern West Coast), I think
the issue is that GTG exhaust heat output is not
linear with electrical load. In other words, you can
drop the electrical load on the GTG by 50% and still
get ~ 77% of the thermal output that you get at 100%
load. Thus, I’m not surprised at the results you are
getting using the thermal tracking option. The eQuest
curves appear to be taking into account the non-linear
relationship between GTG electrical and thermal
output. However, I would step back and ask the
question, does thermal tracking really work? In other
words, if you have to significantly drop your
electrical output in order to match the thermal load,
that may work inside eQuest due to the use of a
theoretical curve. However, it may not work in the
real world due to operational constraints. This
varies by equipment, but what I mean by this is the
following. For example, manufacturers of the simple
Brayton cycle gas turbine engines appear (to me) to
not want the GTGs operated at less than 50% load for
stability reasons, and I know they will not rate them
at load conditions < 50%. It’s likely that you
couldn’t operate the GTG at these conditions because
the GTG PLC controller would be programmed to override
to protect the equipment. Thus, the controller may
not allow the electrical load to go less than 50%, in
which case you would be forced to find a way to dump
the excess heat, which is typically done via a
diverter stack, which diverts exhaust gas around the
Heat Recovery Steam Generator (HRSG).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">To
summarize, my take is what eQuest is doing is
correct. Your potential solutions could be the
following:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><span>1)<span
style="font:7pt/normal "Times New
Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
</span></span></span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Generate
too much electric power and thermal energy; sell the
excess electricity to the grid if you can, and waste
the excess thermal energy through a diverter stack
that operates in conjunction with the heat recovery
steam generator/heat recovery hot water generator.</span></p>
<p><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><span>2)<span
style="font:7pt/normal "Times New
Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
</span></span></span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Downsize
the GTG equipment to better match electrical and
thermal capacity to loads, minimizing non-utilized
heat output, and minimizing electricity sold to the
grid.</span></p>
<p><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><span>3)<span
style="font:7pt/normal "Times New
Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
</span></span></span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Combination
of the above.</span></p>
<p><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><span>4)<span
style="font:7pt/normal "Times New
Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
</span></span></span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Use
a different type of cogeneration equipment, such as a
reciprocating engine or a micro steam turbine
generator. Do you really have a gas turbine
generator, or do you have a reciprocating engine? A
recip engine may have different thermal output versus
electrical output characteristics that might work
better in your favor. I’m not as familiar with the
recips so somebody more knowledgeable in this area
would need to respond. </span></p>
<p><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">In
practice, the sizing of cogeneration systems is quite
tricky. I don’t think there is a perfect solution,
but you strive for the best solution you can get based
on the loads you have and the available cogeneration
equipment in the market, including consideration of
their specific operation constraints. In general, the
goal is to size the cogeneration equipment to match
thermal loads, but it’s not possible to get a perfect
match, and therefore some heat will be wasted.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Your
specific problem may be that you are trying to model a
campus cogeneration system serving just the building
for your project, in which case the loads versus
cogeneration capacity would be a complete mismatch
inside eQuest. In that case, I think you would be
better off ditching eQuest to model the cogeneration
system and just roll your own spreadsheet based on
data supplied from whoever is operating the
cogeneration plant, which is allowed per the USGBC
DESv2.0 guidelines. For example, if you had
monthly/annual “monitored” data on total electrical
output, total gas input, total hot water output, etc.
you could create a spreadsheet that satisfies the
DESv2.0 guidelines. My opinion is that this approach
would be easier than wrestling with eQuest on
cogeneration. The simplest solution, but least
accurate but perhaps more cost effective for you, is
to use the default CHP efficiencies on page 27 of
DESv2.0 (i.e. Appendix D).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Hope
this helps.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Thanks!
</span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Wingdings;font-size:11pt">J</span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"></span></p>
<p><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:rgb(51,153,102);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:8pt"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:rgb(51,153,102);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">JAH</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:rgb(51,153,102);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:8pt"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="color:rgb(51,153,102);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">James
A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Mobile:
(501) 351-4667</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium
medium;border-style:solid none
none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor
currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 17, 2013 8:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> DongEun Kim; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users]
co-generation(gas-turbine generator) question !</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Kim,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">The
gas turbine generator is controlled by the
settings in the electric meter to which it is
assigned. The generator will match the required
electricity consumption (if it has the capacity)
if you set the COGEN-TRACK-MODE to “Track Electric
Load”. Setting the track mode to “Track Thermal
Load” will control the generator to meet the hot
water demand of the loop to which it is attached,
and you only get electricity when the generator is
running to meet the HW load. If your heating
demand is higher than your electricity demand, the
generator will produce more electricity than can
be used by the UTILITY meter and the surplus power
is lost unless you also attach the generator to an
ELECTRIC-SALE meter. Setting the track mode to
“Track Electric Load” should increase the
fuel-to-electricity efficiency but then you will
be wasting some of the recoverable exhaust heat.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><img
moz-do-not-send="true" height="360" width="479"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Bill</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic
Medium","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">William
Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span
style="color:rgb(0,102,0);font-family:"Franklin
Gothic
Medium","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">|</span></b><b><span
style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic
Medium","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">
Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">Senior
Energy Engineer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:5pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">134
South Fitzhugh Street</span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:9pt">
</span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">Rochester,
NY 14608</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">T:
(585) 325-6004
</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">Ext.
114</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">
</span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">F:
(585) 325-6005</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">
</span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:green;font-family:Webdings;font-size:14pt">P</span><span
style="color:green;font-size:14pt">
</span><span style="color:green;font-size:7.5pt">Sustainability
– the forest AND the trees.</span><span
style="color:green;font-family:Webdings;font-size:18pt">
</span><span
style="color:green;font-family:Webdings;font-size:14pt">P</span><span
style="color:green;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:14pt"> </span><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium
medium;border-style:solid none
none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor
currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>DongEun Kim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 17, 2013 5:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users]
co-generation(gas-turbine generator) question !</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
I have an urgent question for you!<br>
<br>
I am trying to model a gas-turbine generator (CHP)
plant per the DES guideline Opt2.<br>
The CHP generates electricity using "track thermal
load" and provides recovered hot water directly to
a hot water loop.<br>
<br>
The problem is that the total electricity
generated by the CHP plant is much less than it is
supposed to be.<br>
(I put "HIR=2.5" for the gas-turbine generator as
the electricity generation efficiency is 40%.
However, the output shows that the total
electricity generated is only 4% of the total fuel
input)<br>
<br>
Does anyone have some thoughts on this?<br>
<br>
Any comment will be greatly appreciated!<br>
<br>
Thank you!!<br>
<br>
Kim</p>
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