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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks very much to both of you. This
has been very helpful. I will try to return the favor some time.<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068
===============================================
</pre>
On 5/6/2013 8:43 AM, Nathan Miller wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
it is a LEED project, I would suggest using the most recent
version of the Energy Star Multifamily High Rise Simulation
Guidelines. This standard is referenced in thee LEED for
Homes Midrise program, and has a reasonable approach for
in-unit lighting to account for both hardwired and plug-in
lighting, and gives a methodology for claiming savings.
I’ve used this standard on LEED NC projects that were
multifamily, and the reviewer’s accepted the methodology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
only trick is finding the most recent version, as there are
multiple versions floating around out there, and they
haven’t been consistent in the version numbering scheme that
they use. I <i>think</i> this is the most recent version,
dated June 2012, but I’m not positive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/bldrs_lenders_raters/downloads/mfhr/ENERGY_STAR_MFHR_Simulation_Guidelines_V1.0.pdf">http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/bldrs_lenders_raters/downloads/mfhr/ENERGY_STAR_MFHR_Simulation_Guidelines_V1.0.pdf</a>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">Nathan
Miller </span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">PE,
LEED<sup>®</sup>AP BD+C, CEM<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst <o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">RUSHING</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">|
</span><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">D</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">206-788-4577
|</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">O</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#A50021">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">206-285-7100</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#4C9595">Our
new web site:</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#D9541E">
</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#6F1200"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><span
style="line-height:115%;color:#6F1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 06, 2013 8:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RobertWichert;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; Gina Rodda<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Building area method
ASHRAE 90.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi
Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(Assuming
90.1-07)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">With
the BAM figure for multifamily @ 0.7, I expect you’ll come
ahead using space-by-space. Trick is to apply the most
appropriate entry for each space type/function.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">COMcheck
is a real fast way to get a handle on what your options are
– strongly recommend giving this a try. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here’s
a quick listing (1 minute effort) of entries I’d expect
would apply to a typical residential project – most are
>0.7: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="Picture_x0020_3"
src="cid:part3.08000601.04050308@wichert.org" height="290"
width="546" border="0"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
there’s a large garage, you might be able to swing
“workshop” at 1.9 W/SF but that may be a stretch ;).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part4.00010807.03060207@wichert.org"
alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" height="37"
width="119" border="0"></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK
CATON, P.E.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR
ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith
& Boucher Engineers</span><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe,
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct
913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax
913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>RobertWichert<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 04, 2013 3:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>;
Gina Rodda<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Building area method
ASHRAE 90.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">To bring up a
topic from a year ago (below) I have a question about using
the Space by Space approach with a multi-family building.
There is a BAM Category for Multi-Family, but not a Space by
Space category for multi-family (except for dormitories).<br>
<br>
Is there a work-around for space by space with multi-family?<br>
<br>
I apologize if this has been covered before.<br>
<br>
<br>
On a working Saturday.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>+1 916 966 9060<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FAX +1 916 966 9068<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>===============================================<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><b>Nick Caton</b> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:equest-users%40lists.onebuilding.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEquest-users%5D%20Building%20area%20method%20ASHRAE%2090.1&In-Reply-To=%3CECDF361A89E5FA479BE7E64C658B52050D8E2006%40SANDBINC4.sbi.smithboucher.com%3E" title="[Equest-users] Building area method ASHRAE 90.1">ncaton at smithboucher.com</a><span class="MsoHyperlink"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span class="MsoHyperlink"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:equest-users%40lists.onebuilding.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEquest-users%5D%20Building%20area%20method%20ASHRAE%2090.1&In-Reply-To=%3CECDF361A89E5FA479BE7E64C658B52050D8E2006%40SANDBINC4.sbi.smithboucher.com%3E" title="[Equest-users] Building area method ASHRAE 90.1"> </a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre> <i>Wed May 23 17:57:42 PDT 2012</i><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal">David's summary looks pretty good to me! <br>
<br>
I want to emphasis a great point that came up along the way:
Space by space can result in more LEED points by 'padding the
baseline,' sure... But "real" savings result from closely
reviewing the proposed design, which in turn generates
opportunities to identify specific means of design
improvement. <br>
<br>
I'll share a related strategy. Consider: Engaging the lighting
designer and improving design doesn't require tallying the
space-by-space totals. If I recognize significant improvements
can be made with revised layouts, fixture reselection, and/or
tweaked control schemes, I have found it VERY productive to
simply share with the lighting designer (and design team
leaders, if necessary) posed scenarios: "If you can reduce
your installed watts by just 10%, the LEED models will earn 2
more LEED points." "If you define your astronomical timeswitch
to shut off non-critical lighting after 2AM, the project earns
a LEED point." Such 'carrot on a stick' proposals normally get
the intended results with minimal friction, engage the
designers in a positive way ("Hey, I just earned the easiest
LEED point ever!") and performing the exploratory simulations
to compose these proposals can be a lot less effort on the
modeler relative to a standard-focused space-by-space analysis
(I'm thinking of big buildings). <br>
<br>
><i>From another perspective: Some of us lighting designers
are sensitive creatures =D... We may have a tough exterior,
but deep inside it hurts my poor fragile feelings if someone
claims "Standard XYZ states bla-bla-bla and therefore you
suck at your job." This advice applies to designers of any
discipline, of course. If you want to pursue improving
design with a standards-centric base, be mindful of this
possibility. Making everyone happy to be working with an
energy modeler can be quite a challenge, but the results are
rewarding. </i>Hope that was illuminating! ~Nick <br>
<br>
[cid:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">489575314
at 22072009-0ABB</a>] NICK CATON, P.E. SENIOR ENGINEER Smith
& Boucher Engineers 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
olathe, ks 66061 direct 913.344.0036 fax 913.345.0617 <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.smithboucher.com">www.smithboucher.com</a>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces
at lists.onebuilding.org</a> <br>
<br>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces
at lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of David Eldridge
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 4:54 PM To: eQuest Users
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Building area method ASHRAE 90.1 <br>
<br>
Patrick, the space-by-space LPD aren't mandatory requirements,
so you'd be able to trade lighting power through
space-by-space or BAM. Someone will have to perform the
take-off either way to calculate the BAM weighted LPD for the
Proposed case, so you aren't saving much time on the Proposed
model. (Only saving the time to actually assign the Watts to
the zone in the model.) There will be a small time savings in
Baseline model creation by not determining and entering
space-by-space power usage into the model. I agree with Bill
that 90.1's wording about "...if a lighting design exists..."
points me towards space-by-space if at all possible. But GBCI
seems to accept both, regardless of possible BAM inaccuracies
which as Nick pointed out may or may not be significant, so
the main result of this gigantic thread is: <br>
<br>
1. Use the same method in both cases. <br>
<br>
2. Several people think 90.1 suggests space-by-space if the
lighting system is designed. <br>
a. Not always (ever?) enforced/requested by GBCI. <br>
b. When the model is being used to inform the design or
calculate incentives, this is the more accurate approach if
there is variance in the spaces for control types, LPD values,
and occupancy schedules. <br>
<br>
3. Although BAM may not provide the most accurate predictions
of energy usage, it may still be "legal" for EAC1 point
calculation purposes. <br>
<br>
David David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP,
HBDP Grumman/Butkus Associates <br>
<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces
at lists.onebuilding.org</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces
at lists.onebuilding.org</a>> [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces
at lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Patrick J.
O'Leary, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:41 PM To: Bishop,
Bill Cc: eQuest Users; Oscar B. <br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Building area method ASHRAE 90.1
referencing this comment: "The only obvious case for using the
Building Area Method to determine modeled LPD is the case that
Nick mentioned where lighting neither exists nor is
specified." or when the lighting designer/electrical engineer
has higher lighting densities that exceed one (or more) of the
space-by-space maximum allowable lpds but compensates for it
by having lower lpds in other spaces such that the whole
building lpd does not exceed the maximum allowable by the
whole building method. <br>
<br>
On 5/23/12 7:45 AM, Bishop, Bill wrote: Building Area and
Space-by-Space are not methods for designing lighting systems.
They are prescriptive requirements for demonstrating lighting
energy compliance in 90.1. The LPD allowances in Tables 9.5.1
and 9.6.1 do not need to be complied with if using energy
modeling to demonstrate compliance for 90.1 and for LEED.
(Only the Mandatory Provisions of 9.4 need to be met for the
lighting design.) Energy modelers only need to know the
lighting power and space use categorizations of the design as
shown on the drawings (along with schedules and controls), not
the process used to design it (which typically considers light
levels in footcandles or lux). <br>
<br>
I think that if a lighting system has been designed, a strong
argument can be made that the space-by-space method needs to
be used in both the proposed and baseline cases, and that
lighting power needs to be entered individually for each
space/zone. "If construction documents are complete, the
proposed building lighting system power is modeled as shown on
the design documents." (ASHRAE 90.1 User's Manual, p. G-17)
"The LPD for the proposed design is taken from the design
documents for the building. The LPD specified in the models
must correspond to the spaces within each thermal block."
(ASHRAE 90.1 User's Manual, p. 11-14 and also p. G-18) The
only obvious case for using the Building Area Method to
determine modeled LPD is the case that Nick mentioned where
lighting neither exists nor is specified. As Maria Karpman,
Nick and Patrick have mentioned, you are likely to show higher
energy savings using the Space-by-Space method. Beyond that,
using Space-by-Space allows you to give valuable feedback to
the design team, which I would argue is a responsibility of
energy modelers. It is routine for me to point out areas of
potential improvement of the lighting design in every project
I model, based on the allowances in Table 9.6.1. "Yes, Ms.
Architect, that is a lovely looking light fixture, but 2.6
W/ft2 of lounge lighting is more than twice the baseline
allowance." I don't know how you give helpful feedback if you
are just comparing two building-averaged lighting power
densities. Regards, Bill - <o:p></o:p></p>
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