<div dir="ltr"><div style>Just as an aside, in Seattle we've been dealing with NFRC requirements for at least the last six years. Our local energy code requires NFRC certification for all glazing products, otherwise you must use similar default values to ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix A which obviously costs the project money making up for the terrible default values. </div>
<div><br></div><div style>The way to get proper NFRC values is to inform the architects about the requirements for a LEED project and make sure the project specifications require the curtainwall manufacturer to provide an NFRC certified product. This usually comes in the form of an NFRC Simulation Report which is a preliminary simulation that is certified prior to installation on the site.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>For more information on how the City of Seattle enforces these requirements you can read the following: <a href="http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/publications/cam/cam403.pdf">http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/publications/cam/cam403.pdf</a></div>
<div style><br></div><div style><img src="cid:ii_13e13b8f7fbdee2b" alt="Inline image 1"><br></div><div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 8:18 AM, James Hess <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:JHess@tmecorp.com" target="_blank">JHess@tmecorp.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">FYI, another practical way to account for the effects of the framing is to use the charts provided by the curtain wall framing manufacturers.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">For example, here is the detailed catalog for the Kawneer system 1600 type 1:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><a href="http://www.kawneer.com/kawneer/north_america/catalog/pdf/1600_Wall_Sys1__E--A.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.kawneer.com/kawneer/north_america/catalog/pdf/1600_Wall_Sys1__E--A.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The charts and data (from pages 32) on allow us to estimate overall u-value and SHGC based on center of glass values and the ratio of Vision Area to Total Area
(%).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">It’s fairly straightforward to document the Vision Area, but a very good rule of thumb is 90%.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">For example, if we had glass with a COG U-value of 0.28 and 90% Vision Area (i.e. 10% framing), the overall/System/Assembly U-value would be ~ 0.44<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">My experience is that this is completely acceptable for LEED/GBCI. These charts were created by application engineers working for the framing companies, which
I’m assuming they know this stuff way better than I do. If you look at page 35, it says the U-factors, SHGC, and VT values are determined in accordance with NFRC 100 and 200.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other framing vendors, like EFCO, have similar charts that we can use.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In my view, this is good enough to document assembly performance. I would use the charts and move on. If the new Table 1.4 includes space for a comment, I
would reference the charts, and submit the charts if asked.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">There really is no other way to do this except try to calculate ourselves, which why bother when we have these charts. If we ask the architects, often times,
they will not understand what we are asking for. They will probably only be familiar with the glass properties, not the combination of glass + framing. The glass vendor will only give you performance data for the glass, not the combination of glass and framing.
I’m not sure why section 5.8.8.2 exists, except for packaged windows. I haven’t found anybody that will give you a permanently installed nameplate or official certification for the entire fenestration system, at least for custom systems often encountered
in commercial construction (i.e. curtain wall versus packaged windows). Maybe the 5.8.8.2 requirement are met in other parts of country by somebody, but for now, I’ve found these charts from the curtain wall vendors to be very effective from a cost and time
standpoint. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I would welcome any additional feedback on this.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hope this is helpful.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks!
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:rgb(31,73,125)">J</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,153,102)"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,153,102)">JAH<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,153,102)"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=""><b><i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,153,102)">James A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Mobile: <a href="tel:%28501%29%20351-4667" value="+15013514667" target="_blank">(501) 351-4667</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio</span></p><div class="im"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 15, 2013 2:34 PM<br>
</div><b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Fenestration Modeling Question<u></u><u></u><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class=""><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt">Thanks Bill, the comment you received is encouraging.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">Paul Diglio, CEM, CBCP<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt">87 Fairmont Avenue<br>
New Haven, CT 06513<br>
<a href="tel:203-415-0082" value="+12034150082" target="_blank">203-415-0082</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://www.pdigliollc.com" target="_blank">www.pdigliollc.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div class="" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> "Bishop, Bill" <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Mon, April 15, 2013 2:45:18 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] LEED Fenestration Modeling Question</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Paul,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I recently received the following comment in a LEED review for a LEED-NC v2009 project:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><img border="0" width="682" height="154"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">This implies that Window v6.3 calculations are acceptable in lieu of NFRC ratings. The comment does not exclude the modeler from performing the calculation.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Of course, I have no idea if this is boilerplate language or if LEED reviewers have discretion here. It is also possible that requirements will become stricter for newer projects.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Bill</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:10pt">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,102,0)">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10pt"> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:9pt">Senior Energy Engineer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">134 South Fitzhugh Street Rochester, NY 14608</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">T: <a href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6004" value="+15853256004" target="_blank">(585) 325-6004</a>
</span><span style="font-size:9pt">Ext. 114</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">F: <a href="tel:%28585%29%20325-6005" value="+15853256005" target="_blank">(585) 325-6005</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt">
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span><span style="font-size:14pt;color:green">
</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:green">Sustainability – the forest AND the trees.</span><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">
</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span><span style="font-size:14pt;color:green"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 15, 2013 2:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] LEED Fenestration Modeling Question</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=""> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt">Folks:<br>
<br>
I am a bit confused when modeling unrated vertical fenestration for the proposed model. 90.1 states that we need to use the values determined in accordance with NFRC 100 or we can use the data in Table A8.2 for vertical fenestration per Exception b, Section
5.8.2.4.<br>
<br>
If so, the values in Table A8.2 exceed the maximum allowed fenestration u-values listed in Table 5.5-5 (my zone), so will this not disqualify the proposed building model?<br>
<br>
I have often found it impossible to get the architect to supply the NFRC assembly ratings of the glazing and field erected curtain-wall systems.<br>
<br>
I have used the LBNL Window 6.3 program to calculate the vertical fenestration ratings, but 90.1 Section 5.8.8.2 states that the fenestration product shall have a permanently installed nameplate or the manufacturer shall provide a signed and dated certification
for the installed fenestration.<br>
<br>
I don't see any wiggle-room where 90.1 allows the modeler to calculate the NFRC rating of vertical fenestration.
<br>
<br>
Saying that, I have submitted projects where I calculated the fenestration assembly u-values without any kick-back from the GBCI.<br>
<br>
I am concerned that the reviewers will push this issue since it is now clearly defined on the new Section 1.4 Table and if I submit my own ratings I will end up remodeling the project and/or the proposed building envelope will be rejected since it doesn't meet
the mandatory requirements of Section 5.4.<br>
<br>
Any thoughts?<br>
<br>
Thank you,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">Paul Diglio, CEM, CBCP</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt">87 Fairmont Avenue<br>
New Haven, CT 06513<br>
<a href="tel:203-415-0082" value="+12034150082" target="_blank">203-415-0082</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://www.pdigliollc.com" target="_blank">www.pdigliollc.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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