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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Maria,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I appreciate your response, and had additional question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regarding scenario B, you are saying that the DOAS fan power must be included in the Proposed Design. Agree.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For the Baseline, I see what you are saying. The Baseline fans must be modeled explicitly because they run continuously while the compressors cycle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">However, my question is what fan power allowance do you use for the Baseline systems, and do you include any additional allowance to account for a Baseline
DOAS?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks!
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">JAH<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">James A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile: (501) 351-4667<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Maria Karpman [mailto:maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Hess; 'Cam Fitzgerald'; 'Richard Ellison'; 'Kathryn Kerns'; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Both the original wording of 90.1 related to fan schedule and the interpretation that Paul kindly shared sound vague to me. I use the following logic to decide
how baseline/proposed fans should be modeled based on mechanical ventilation arrangement in the proposed design:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">(A)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">No mechanical ventilation is provided. For example, a multi-family building with VRF HPs in apartment units may rely on operable windows for ventilation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Proposed design: no mechanical ventilation should be modeled; VRF should be modeled as cycling with load; fan power does not
have to be modeled explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Baseline design: no mechanical ventilation should be modeled; PTHP should be modeled as cycling with load; fan power does not
have to be modeled explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">(B)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Exhaust or supply ventilation is provided. For example, a multifamily building with VRF HPs in apartment units, with ventilation provided by DOAS
supplying conditioned air to apartments directly or via VRFs, or continuously running rooftop kitchen/bathroom exhaust fans pulling air through trickle vents in living rooms / bedrooms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Proposed design: VRF modeled as specified (cycling with load or running continuously to deliver OA); exhaust fans / DOAS running
continuously to provide ventilation. VRF fan power does not have to be modeled explicitly if the units cycle; fan power of continuously running systems (exhaust fans, DOAS, and possibly VRF) has to be modeled explicitly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Baseline design: PTHP should be modeled as running continuously, providing the same ventilation as in the proposed design;
fan power should be modeled explicitly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Maria<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Cam Fitzgerald; 'Richard Ellison'; 'Kathryn Kerns'; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here are just a few more clarifying points, then I have to move on, got projects calling.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">When I say that ducting the DOAS direct to the space results in more ducting, I’m talking about the supply duct downstream of the unit. The assumption is made
that the general unit supply duct already does a good job distributing air throughout the zone so we take advantage of that and return the DOAS to the return of the units. Otherwise, the DOAS system duct has to go farther into the space and do what the supply
duct already present is already doing (i.e. distributing air within the space). I don’t think you can make the assumption that just dumping OA somewhere in the room meets the ASHRAE 62 requirements because it would not be well mixed within the room. If the
62 calcs were being done correctly, you would have to compensate for the lack of mixing by increasing the amount of outside air delivered to the space. It’s much less expensive to just route the outside air to the returns of the units.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Secondly, I don’t see how cycling the fans in the Baseline meets ASHRAE 62 ventilation requirements since the requirements are for continuous ventilation.
Cycling the fans in the Baseline implies that you have a DOAS present with zero fan power. That hardly makes any sense.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Finally, I’m not just trying to toss rocks at Appendix G. Obviously, there is a problem with fan power allowances and it needs correction. It’s up to us energy
modelers to provide feedback to the ASHRAE PRM committee and work to change that. Consequently, I will work on making a recommendation to the ASHRAE PRM committee regarding this area. I probably won’t work on that, however, until after March 14<sup>th</sup>,
due to impending project deadlines.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks!
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">JAH</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">James A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile: (501) 351-4667</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Cam Fitzgerald; 'Richard Ellison'; 'Kathryn Kerns'; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">10-4, here are some follow up comments.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In the real world, the majority of DOAS that I have seen designed have the outside air ducted direct to the return of the units. Therefore, the fans must run
(versus cycling) in order to adequately distribute the OA throughout the spaces. In an actual design, ducting the OA directing to the spaces generally requires a separate duct system, which is expensive, and therefore usually not done. But, I would think
that the assumption that the DOAS dumps OA direct to the space would follow the actual design. If your actual design does that, then I would think you could assume cycling, and if not, then you assume constant fan operation. Whatever you assume in that regard
should be applied to both the Baseline and Proposed systems. Therefore, I don’t think that the fans cycling would help all that much. For example, if the actual design had water source heat pumps and OA ducted to return of each unit from the DOAS, then the
WSHP fans must run during occupied hours. The Baseline would make a similar assumption. If the OA is instead ducted separately to the spaces, then the OA would be independent of the WSHPs and the WSHP fans could cycle. Therefore, the Baseline fans could
cycle. But if you assumed the Baseline fans are cycling, to me that implies that a DOAS is separately providing the outside air because air is not distributed without fans running. The problem is there is no mention of DOAS in Appendix G, and no fan power
allowance.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It’s true that energy recovery from the DOAS could offset the fan energy penalty associated with the DOAS. However, eQuest cannot model DOAS with energy recovery,
at least not without a great deal of trickery. I have developed a special procedure for eQuest that I have successfully submitted to LEED as an exceptional calc, and was approved.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">With regards to my suggestion about treating the DOAS as a process load being inappropriate …
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If you follow the strict guidance of Appendix G to the letter, you would assign all the DOAS fan power in the Proposed Design, and zero DOAS fan power in the
Baseline. In the Baseline, you would only assign the 0.3 watts/CFM fan power to the HVAC units. I’ve found that even normal FCUs with some duct work exceed the 0.30 watts/CFM amount, so it’s highly likely that your Proposed Design fan power will substantially
exceed your Baseline fan power. The DOAS will be a big reason for this, but not the only reason. Overall, you will have negative savings in the fan energy category due to this issue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I guess you have to ask yourself if that more appropriate, or if the Baseline fan power allowance is inappropriate?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If you believe the former, then you will very likely have to go to the design team and ask them for more efficient equipment in other areas (i.e. lighting)
in order to make up for the negative fan energy savings in order to hit the overall project energy savings goal, all because we don’t have a valid Baseline fan power allowance for system types 1 & 2 that allows for DOAS fan power, or even a standard ducted
fan coil unit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The other option is to not model the DOAS fan power in either the Baseline or Proposed, since the argument can be made that Appendix G doesn’t cover DOAS, therefore
DOAS is not modeled. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m sure that would be viewed as inappropriate/incorrect also. Therefore, just do it to the exact letter of Appendix G and tell the design team here is your
savings, sorry, don’t blame me, I did not create the fan power allowances for Appendix G.
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Respectfully, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">JAH</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">James A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile: (501) 351-4667</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Cam Fitzgerald [<a href="mailto:cam@energyopportunities.com">mailto:cam@energyopportunities.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Richard Ellison'; James Hess; 'Kathryn Kerns'; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Agreed…the conditioning fans can only be cycled if they are not required to distribute the ventilation air from the DOAS.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Richard Ellison [<a href="mailto:REllison@southlandind.com">mailto:REllison@southlandind.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Cam Fitzgerald; 'James Hess'; 'Kathryn Kerns'; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I agree with your comment that “…suggestion below that the DOAS should be modeled as a process load is inappropriate for the baseline case.” However I have
concerns on the final portion of your comment. Most real designs that would be proposed don’t dump OA directly into the space and DO require the terminal fan be running to be operating to distribute OA from the DOAS into the building. In this design you
cannot assume the terminal unit is cycled in the proposed case and meet the 62.1 OA requirements.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Cam Fitzgerald<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'James Hess'; 'Kathryn Kerns'; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Good morning, all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I inadvertently sent the following response only to Kathryn yesterday.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There is no fan power correction available for the baseline residential systems type 1 (PTAC) and type 2 (PTHP). The baseline systems are standardized to establish
a benchmark for demonstrating energy savings. If the dormitory includes non-residential spaces (lounges, corridors, and other common areas) with a total area of 20,000 sf or more, then exception (a) to section G3.1.1 would apply and it is appropriate to used
an alternate (non-residential) system type for these areas and if the proposed systems are fully ducted return systems with MERV 13 filters, then the adjustment factors for those devices may be applied in the fan power calculations for the non-residential
systems.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In light of the suggestion below that the DOAS should be modeled as a process load is inappropriate for the baseline case. When DOAS supply tempered ventilation
air directly to the space (e.g. not the return airstream of the unit conditioning the space) the ability to cycle the fans that condition the space to maintain the space temperature is acceptable (these fans are not required to provide ventilation so they
do not need to operate continuously). In the Baseline case, the ventilation air is assumed to be delivered through the PTAC/PTHP units so these fans must operate continuously during occupied periods. The savings from cycling the fans in the residential units,
the energy recovery, and air-side economizer generally compensates for the additional fan power required for the DOAS system. Note that if the DOAS system were modeled in the baseline case, it is possible that energy recovery would be required and some of
the savings for this measure in the Proposed design would be lost.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Herein lies the value of energy modeling for design decisions…is the fan energy penalty for the DOAS system equal to or less than the potential savings?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Have a great day!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3D9959">Cam Fitzgerald</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3D9959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3D9959">Energy Opportunities/a 7group company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3D9959">1200 E Camping Area Rd, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kathryn Kerns; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Interesting question about DOAS and the current fan power allowance for system types 1 & 2. I think we very much need an update to Appendix G to account for
the fan power requirements of the dedicated outdoor air systems that are (in my opinion) required for unitary type systems such as PTACs as well as the PSZ-ACs.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m in the south, and so we cannot count on simply opening the windows to meet our ASHRAE ventilation requirements, at least not anymore
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> (we did exactly that through until ~ 1988 at the school in Louisiana I attending while growing
up, at which point we finally got air conditioning and promptly shut the windows).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I would argue that a DOAS is necessary in the south to properly provide outside air, while maintaining acceptable building humidity conditions, for unitary
type systems. Anything less is negligent design, in our opinion. However, at the present time, Appendix G assumes that PTACs (or PSZ-ACs) will bring outside air continuously into the zones and cycle the compressor to control room temp while ignoring humidity.
You can’t do that in real life. Where we have seen that done, you get condensation and eventually mold, and eventually you get sued.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I think you have run into a gray area for which there is no good answer currently. Assuming that you are working on a LEED project, you’ll have to hope that
you run up against a LEED reviewer that will exercise good judgment and common sense, and understand that this area is not covered by Appendix G currently and that a reasonable allowance for DOAS fan power should work and should be allowed, since it can be
argued that DOAS are required to meet the ASHRAE 62 ventilation requirements.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The issue is that the 0.3 watts/CFM is only enough fan power allowance to account for a motel “thru the wall” type unit. No external ductwork (supply or return),
barely a filter, and certainly no allowance for a DOAS.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My recommended solution would be to model the DOAS with the same fan power in the Baseline as in the Proposed.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That’s conservative in my opinion. You aren’t taking credit for any fan energy savings associated with the DOAS, but neither are you unnecessarily penalizing
yourself either for something that is required for the Proposed Design.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regarding AHRI fan power assumptions, I’m not sure about that question. But I did a quick test in eQuest. I built a quick sample model in the DD wizard, selected
PTAC, and entered 11 EER for cooling efficiency. I then went to the detailed mode and the EIR conversion was the exact same that eQuest does for any system
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">à</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> EIR = 0.2580 for EER =11.0. Consequently, we know that eQuest is using the 365 watts/KCFM conversion.
But that’s eQuest. I don’t know what AHRI 310 uses for fan power assumption, if anything. I looked into this a while back and I don’t think that eQuest is on the same page with the AHRI fan power assumptions used in the ratings. I could be incorrect, however.
Another thing is that the fan power assumptions used in the AHRI ratings have absolutely nothing to do with the Appendix G fan power requirements. I do know that. I think we need to let eQuest do its thing in the wizard/detailed interface transition, and
then go to the detailed interface and change the EIR ourselves to whatever is appropriate, if we can figure out what AHRI is doing regarding fan power assumptions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hope this helps!
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">JAH</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">James A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile: (501) 351-4667</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kathryn Kerns<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 25, 2013 5:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Everyone, I have been modeling some dormitories with a proposed HVAC system involving a DOA with a full exhaust air HX and MERV 13 filters. The puzzle is what to do about the
baseline PTAC fan power energy? If I use 0.3 w/cfm as Appendix G suggests, my PTAC baseline system does not account for a fully ducted return\exhaust or MERV 13 filters. The commercial fan power equation for systems 3-8 accounts for this, but I am not supposed
to use that formula for System 1 and 2.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Another puzzle is if I develop an cooling EIR value for my baseline PTAC using the 365 w/kCFM conversion rule and equate that with 0.3 w/cfm, what happened to the other 65
w/kCFM? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Maybe ARI 310/380 doesn’t use 365 w/cfm fan power? I read it and didn’t find any statement regarding fan power requirements, but I assume it works the same as ARI 210/240?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I am wondering if a compromise of
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> PTAC fan power = CFM<i>s</i> *0.000365 + A where A= PD*CFM<i>s</i> /4131 and PD = 1.4</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">might be a reasonable solution?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> PTAC fan power = 0.00063 kw/cfm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Does anyone else have experience with this puzzle?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><strong><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Kathryn Kerns</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><em><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-style:normal">Systems Specialist</span></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><em><b><span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:teal;font-style:normal">BCE</span></b></em><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-variant:small-caps;color:teal">
</span><span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:teal">Engineers, Inc.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><strong><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">| Ph: 253.922.0446 | Fx: 253.922.0896 |</span></strong><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:black">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">No virus found in this message.<br>
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Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5636 - Release Date: 02/27/13<o:p></o:p></p>
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