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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I have been following this because I
have some related issues with another DOE-2 based program,
EnergyPro, regarding fan power and energy. I am wondering if my
concerns are related, so I will just put them out there and if
not, not.<br>
<br>
EnergyPro asks for Fan Brake Horsepower. That fan BHP is then
converted to fan motor Watts by dividing by motor and drive
efficiency. The issue is that getting FAN BHP is difficult. What
is usually available from the manufacturers is FAN MOTOR AMPS,
which is typically more than the motor ever draws, for electrical
conservatism reasons (don't want to undersize the wires). So
getting FAN BHP (essentially at the fan shaft) is not easy. But
using Fan Motor Amps gives a much higher number.<br>
<br>
So, is this germane to the discussion here, that is, would getting
fan BHP be helpful? The theoretical Fan Horsepower equation, Fan
BHP = (cfm x static press "w.c.) / (6356 x fan efficiency), can
get Fan BHP, given fan efficiency, but again fan efficiency is not
easy to get. I am wondering if using Fan BHP is what EQuest
needs, not Fan Motor Watts and the lower Fan BHP would provide
better compliance, in accordance with the basis of the program.
When you say "<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">we
know that eQuest is using the 365 watts/KCFM conversion" </span>is
that Fan Shaft Watts or Fan Motor Watts? Does EQuest subsequently
divide that by the drive and motor efficiency to get Fan Motor
Watts? If so, the .365 W/CFM may be sufficient. Fan Motor
efficiencies can be pretty dismal, I have been told. If EQuest
does this calculation, what Fan Motor Efficiency is used?<br>
<br>
Regarding ratings and what interior fan power and energy is
accounted for in the ratings, well, if you find out anything on
that, I'd love to hear it. I know that indoor fans are included
in the ratings, but how much power and energy? I do not know. I
have toyed with calling AHRI and asking them, and I think that is
what is needed, but I haven't done that. Yet.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068
===============================================
</pre>
On 2/27/2013 6:45 AM, Maria Karpman wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Both
the original wording of 90.1 related to fan schedule and the
interpretation that Paul kindly shared sound vague to me. I
use the following logic to decide how baseline/proposed fans
should be modeled based on mechanical ventilation
arrangement in the proposed design:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">(A)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">No
mechanical ventilation is provided. For example, a
multi-family building with VRF HPs in apartment units may
rely on operable windows for ventilation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Proposed
design: no mechanical ventilation should be modeled; VRF
should be modeled as cycling with load; fan power does not
have to be modeled explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Baseline
design: no mechanical ventilation should be modeled; PTHP
should be modeled as cycling with load; fan power does not
have to be modeled explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">(B)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Exhaust
or supply ventilation is provided. For example, a
multifamily building with VRF HPs in apartment units, with
ventilation provided by DOAS supplying conditioned air to
apartments directly or via VRFs, or continuously running
rooftop kitchen/bathroom exhaust fans pulling air through
trickle vents in living rooms / bedrooms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Proposed
design: VRF modeled as specified (cycling with load or
running continuously to deliver OA); exhaust fans / DOAS
running continuously to provide ventilation. VRF fan power
does not have to be modeled explicitly if the units cycle;
fan power of continuously running systems (exhaust fans,
DOAS, and possibly VRF) has to be modeled explicitly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Baseline
design: PTHP should be modeled as running continuously,
providing the same ventilation as in the proposed design;
fan power should be modeled explicitly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Maria<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Cam Fitzgerald; 'Richard Ellison'; 'Kathryn
Kerns'; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan
Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here
are just a few more clarifying points, then I have to move
on, got projects calling.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">When
I say that ducting the DOAS direct to the space results in
more ducting, I’m talking about the supply duct downstream
of the unit. The assumption is made that the general unit
supply duct already does a good job distributing air
throughout the zone so we take advantage of that and return
the DOAS to the return of the units. Otherwise, the DOAS
system duct has to go farther into the space and do what the
supply duct already present is already doing (i.e.
distributing air within the space). I don’t think you can
make the assumption that just dumping OA somewhere in the
room meets the ASHRAE 62 requirements because it would not
be well mixed within the room. If the 62 calcs were being
done correctly, you would have to compensate for the lack of
mixing by increasing the amount of outside air delivered to
the space. It’s much less expensive to just route the
outside air to the returns of the units.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Secondly,
I don’t see how cycling the fans in the Baseline meets
ASHRAE 62 ventilation requirements since the requirements
are for continuous ventilation. Cycling the fans in the
Baseline implies that you have a DOAS present with zero fan
power. That hardly makes any sense.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Finally,
I’m not just trying to toss rocks at Appendix G. Obviously,
there is a problem with fan power allowances and it needs
correction. It’s up to us energy modelers to provide
feedback to the ASHRAE PRM committee and work to change
that. Consequently, I will work on making a recommendation
to the ASHRAE PRM committee regarding this area. I probably
won’t work on that, however, until after March 14<sup>th</sup>,
due to impending project deadlines.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks!
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">JAH</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">James
A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile:
(501) 351-4667</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Cam Fitzgerald; 'Richard Ellison'; 'Kathryn
Kerns'; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan
Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">10-4,
here are some follow up comments.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
the real world, the majority of DOAS that I have seen
designed have the outside air ducted direct to the return of
the units. Therefore, the fans must run (versus cycling) in
order to adequately distribute the OA throughout the
spaces. In an actual design, ducting the OA directing to
the spaces generally requires a separate duct system, which
is expensive, and therefore usually not done. But, I would
think that the assumption that the DOAS dumps OA direct to
the space would follow the actual design. If your actual
design does that, then I would think you could assume
cycling, and if not, then you assume constant fan
operation. Whatever you assume in that regard should be
applied to both the Baseline and Proposed systems.
Therefore, I don’t think that the fans cycling would help
all that much. For example, if the actual design had water
source heat pumps and OA ducted to return of each unit from
the DOAS, then the WSHP fans must run during occupied
hours. The Baseline would make a similar assumption. If
the OA is instead ducted separately to the spaces, then the
OA would be independent of the WSHPs and the WSHP fans could
cycle. Therefore, the Baseline fans could cycle. But if
you assumed the Baseline fans are cycling, to me that
implies that a DOAS is separately providing the outside air
because air is not distributed without fans running. The
problem is there is no mention of DOAS in Appendix G, and no
fan power allowance.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It’s
true that energy recovery from the DOAS could offset the fan
energy penalty associated with the DOAS. However, eQuest
cannot model DOAS with energy recovery, at least not without
a great deal of trickery. I have developed a special
procedure for eQuest that I have successfully submitted to
LEED as an exceptional calc, and was approved.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">With
regards to my suggestion about treating the DOAS as a
process load being inappropriate … </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
you follow the strict guidance of Appendix G to the letter,
you would assign all the DOAS fan power in the Proposed
Design, and zero DOAS fan power in the Baseline. In the
Baseline, you would only assign the 0.3 watts/CFM fan power
to the HVAC units. I’ve found that even normal FCUs with
some duct work exceed the 0.30 watts/CFM amount, so it’s
highly likely that your Proposed Design fan power will
substantially exceed your Baseline fan power. The DOAS will
be a big reason for this, but not the only reason. Overall,
you will have negative savings in the fan energy category
due to this issue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
guess you have to ask yourself if that more appropriate, or
if the Baseline fan power allowance is inappropriate?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
you believe the former, then you will very likely have to go
to the design team and ask them for more efficient equipment
in other areas (i.e. lighting) in order to make up for the
negative fan energy savings in order to hit the overall
project energy savings goal, all because we don’t have a
valid Baseline fan power allowance for system types 1 &
2 that allows for DOAS fan power, or even a standard ducted
fan coil unit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
other option is to not model the DOAS fan power in either
the Baseline or Proposed, since the argument can be made
that Appendix G doesn’t cover DOAS, therefore DOAS is not
modeled. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m
sure that would be viewed as inappropriate/incorrect also.
Therefore, just do it to the exact letter of Appendix G and
tell the design team here is your savings, sorry, don’t
blame me, I did not create the fan power allowances for
Appendix G. </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Respectfully,
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">JAH</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">James
A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile:
(501) 351-4667</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Cam Fitzgerald [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cam@energyopportunities.com">mailto:cam@energyopportunities.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Richard Ellison'; James Hess; 'Kathryn
Kerns'; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan
Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Agreed…the
conditioning fans can only be cycled if they are not
required to distribute the ventilation air from the DOAS.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Richard Ellison [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:REllison@southlandind.com">mailto:REllison@southlandind.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Cam Fitzgerald; 'James Hess'; 'Kathryn
Kerns'; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan
Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
agree with your comment that “…suggestion below that the
DOAS should be modeled as a process load is inappropriate
for the baseline case.” However I have concerns on the
final portion of your comment. Most real designs that would
be proposed don’t dump OA directly into the space and DO
require the terminal fan be running to be operating to
distribute OA from the DOAS into the building. In this
design you cannot assume the terminal unit is cycled in the
proposed case and meet the 62.1 OA requirements.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Cam Fitzgerald<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'James Hess'; 'Kathryn Kerns'; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan
Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Good
morning, all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
inadvertently sent the following response only to Kathryn
yesterday.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There
is no fan power correction available for the baseline
residential systems type 1 (PTAC) and type 2 (PTHP). The
baseline systems are standardized to establish a benchmark
for demonstrating energy savings. If the dormitory includes
non-residential spaces (lounges, corridors, and other common
areas) with a total area of 20,000 sf or more, then
exception (a) to section G3.1.1 would apply and it is
appropriate to used an alternate (non-residential) system
type for these areas and if the proposed systems are fully
ducted return systems with MERV 13 filters, then the
adjustment factors for those devices may be applied in the
fan power calculations for the non-residential systems.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
light of the suggestion below that the DOAS should be
modeled as a process load is inappropriate for the baseline
case. When DOAS supply tempered ventilation air directly to
the space (e.g. not the return airstream of the unit
conditioning the space) the ability to cycle the fans that
condition the space to maintain the space temperature is
acceptable (these fans are not required to provide
ventilation so they do not need to operate continuously). In
the Baseline case, the ventilation air is assumed to be
delivered through the PTAC/PTHP units so these fans must
operate continuously during occupied periods. The savings
from cycling the fans in the residential units, the energy
recovery, and air-side economizer generally compensates for
the additional fan power required for the DOAS system. Note
that if the DOAS system were modeled in the baseline case,
it is possible that energy recovery would be required and
some of the savings for this measure in the Proposed design
would be lost.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Herein
lies the value of energy modeling for design decisions…is
the fan energy penalty for the DOAS system equal to or less
than the potential savings?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Have
a great day!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3D9959">Cam
Fitzgerald</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3D9959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3D9959">Energy
Opportunities/a 7group company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3D9959">1200
E Camping Area Rd, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Hess<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kathryn Kerns; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan
Energy for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Interesting
question about DOAS and the current fan power allowance for
system types 1 & 2. I think we very much need an update
to Appendix G to account for the fan power requirements of
the dedicated outdoor air systems that are (in my opinion)
required for unitary type systems such as PTACs as well as
the PSZ-ACs. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m
in the south, and so we cannot count on simply opening the
windows to meet our ASHRAE ventilation requirements, at
least not anymore </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
(we did exactly that through until ~ 1988 at the school in
Louisiana I attending while growing up, at which point we
finally got air conditioning and promptly shut the windows).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
would argue that a DOAS is necessary in the south to
properly provide outside air, while maintaining acceptable
building humidity conditions, for unitary type systems.
Anything less is negligent design, in our opinion. However,
at the present time, Appendix G assumes that PTACs (or
PSZ-ACs) will bring outside air continuously into the zones
and cycle the compressor to control room temp while ignoring
humidity. You can’t do that in real life. Where we have
seen that done, you get condensation and eventually mold,
and eventually you get sued.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
think you have run into a gray area for which there is no
good answer currently. Assuming that you are working on a
LEED project, you’ll have to hope that you run up against a
LEED reviewer that will exercise good judgment and common
sense, and understand that this area is not covered by
Appendix G currently and that a reasonable allowance for
DOAS fan power should work and should be allowed, since it
can be argued that DOAS are required to meet the ASHRAE 62
ventilation requirements.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
issue is that the 0.3 watts/CFM is only enough fan power
allowance to account for a motel “thru the wall” type unit.
No external ductwork (supply or return), barely a filter,
and certainly no allowance for a DOAS.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My
recommended solution would be to model the DOAS with the
same fan power in the Baseline as in the Proposed. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That’s
conservative in my opinion. You aren’t taking credit for
any fan energy savings associated with the DOAS, but neither
are you unnecessarily penalizing yourself either for
something that is required for the Proposed Design.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regarding
AHRI fan power assumptions, I’m not sure about that
question. But I did a quick test in eQuest. I built a
quick sample model in the DD wizard, selected PTAC, and
entered 11 EER for cooling efficiency. I then went to the
detailed mode and the EIR conversion was the exact same that
eQuest does for any system </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">à</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
EIR = 0.2580 for EER =11.0. Consequently, we know that
eQuest is using the 365 watts/KCFM conversion. But that’s
eQuest. I don’t know what AHRI 310 uses for fan power
assumption, if anything. I looked into this a while back
and I don’t think that eQuest is on the same page with the
AHRI fan power assumptions used in the ratings. I could be
incorrect, however. Another thing is that the fan power
assumptions used in the AHRI ratings have absolutely nothing
to do with the Appendix G fan power requirements. I do know
that. I think we need to let eQuest do its thing in the
wizard/detailed interface transition, and then go to the
detailed interface and change the EIR ourselves to whatever
is appropriate, if we can figure out what AHRI is doing
regarding fan power assumptions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hope
this helps! </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">JAH</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#339966">James
A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Energy Engineer<br>
TME, Inc.<br>
Little Rock, AR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile:
(501) 351-4667</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kathryn Kerns<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 25, 2013 5:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Baseline PTAC Fan Energy
for a Proposed Merv13 + Return Duct System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Everyone,
I have been modeling some dormitories with a proposed HVAC
system involving a DOA with a full exhaust air HX and MERV
13 filters. The puzzle is what to do about the baseline PTAC
fan power energy? If I use 0.3 w/cfm as Appendix G suggests,
my PTAC baseline system does not account for a fully ducted
return\exhaust or MERV 13 filters. The commercial fan power
equation for systems 3-8 accounts for this, but I am not
supposed to use that formula for System 1 and 2.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Another
puzzle is if I develop an cooling EIR value for my baseline
PTAC using the 365 w/kCFM conversion rule and equate that
with 0.3 w/cfm, what happened to the other 65 w/kCFM? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Maybe
ARI 310/380 doesn’t use 365 w/cfm fan power? I read it and
didn’t find any statement regarding fan power requirements,
but I assume it works the same as ARI 210/240?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I
am wondering if a compromise of </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
PTAC fan power = CFM<i>s</i> *0.000365 + A where
A= PD*CFM<i>s</i> /4131 and PD = 1.4</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">might
be a reasonable solution?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
PTAC fan power = 0.00063 kw/cfm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Does
anyone else have experience with this puzzle?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Kathryn
Kerns</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><em><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-style:normal">Systems
Specialist</span></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><em><b><span
style="font-variant:small-caps;color:teal;font-style:normal">BCE</span></b></em><strong><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-variant:small-caps;color:teal"> </span><span
style="font-variant:small-caps;color:teal">Engineers, Inc.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="section1" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><strong><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">| Ph: 253.922.0446 |
Fx: 253.922.0896 |</span></strong><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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