<div>Thanks Bill and Vikram - with most buildings this would be an easy solution, but with this particular building the problem involves hundreds of these exterior surfaces. Unfortunately, the changes in building geometry are not minor enough to simplify - bump outs exceeding 20 feet, changes in direction and angle of the building, etc. I should have noted that the 4M+ SF is spread across 4 floors...</div>
<div> </div><div>I'll take a look at it once the architecture is finally complete in the model. I'll have to do it as best as possible in the 3D view since without a pan feature I can't get close enough to the tails of the building to visualize the sections that are exterior.</div>
<div> </div><div>If anyone does have an idea on what percentage of the load these phantom skin loads can add up to in more typical cases, that would be helpful: following ASHRAE 14 there's room for some small percentage error adjustments due to things like this. To put it a little differently, we're recommending the owner finish changing the last few incandescents to alternate sources (depending on application, LED or CFL) but the threshold for showing up as a percentage of energy use in the building is so high all of the incandescent sources remaining wouldn't show up on the simplified results in eQuest. :) Fun "little" project, yes?<br clear="all">
</div><div><div>Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Sami, Vikram <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Vikram.Sami@perkinswill.com" target="_blank">Vikram.Sami@perkinswill.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">I agree with Bill – don’t leave them as exterior walls – you will get non existent skin loads in those zones. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Another thing worth trying (if you are going through the wizard) is to make the building footprint slightly bigger than the zone footprint on that side of the building. Like this:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><img src="cid:image004.jpg@01CDF989.89343BF0" width="853" height="565"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">You will end up with interior walls in those zones like so:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><img src="cid:image005.png@01CDF989.7EFDCB10" width="852" height="533"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Hope this helps<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(220,170,44);font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">Vikram Sami</span></b><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">, LEED AP BD+C<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">Sustainable Design Analyst<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">t: <a href="tel:404-443-7462" target="_blank" value="+14044437462">404-443-7462</a> f: </span><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt" lang="ES"><a href="tel:404.892.5823" target="_blank" value="+14048925823">404.892.5823</a> </span><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt"> e: <a href="mailto:vikram.sami@perkinswill.com" target="_blank">vikram.sami@perkinswill.com</a> </span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><a href="http://www.perkinswill.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none">www.perkinswill.com</span></a></span><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:3pt" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">Perkins+Will.</span></b><span style="color:gray;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt"> </span><span style="color:rgb(173,212,37);font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society</span><span style="color:green;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jeremy Poling; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div></div><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Jeremy,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Well, every one of those extraneous exterior walls (and roofs) is going to be simulated as envelope loads on those spaces. The model doesn’t know that they aren’t actually exposed to the outdoors. I would certainly delete them for any model, calibrated or otherwise, if it were me. You could determine the impact, relatively quickly, by modifying the U-factor of your wall construction based on the ratio of modeled exterior wall area to actual exterior wall area. Get your modeled wall area from the last page of the LV-D report, and divide by the actual wall area of the existing building. Divide the wall construction U-factor by the modeled-to-actual wall ratio, and modify the wall construction accordingly. Simulate and see how much the energy is reduced. Okay, never mind that sounds like too much work. Just delete the walls.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">If you’re in that much of a hurry, don’t replace the exterior walls with interior walls. Just delete the exterior surfaces and be done with it. I usually add the interior walls, especially if the adjacent spaces have different thermostat setpoints or different internal loads. These edits can be pretty quick when you modify the 3-D view to more easily see where the extra surfaces are:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><img border="0" src="cid:image002.jpg@01CDF989.19F2F100" width="425" height="298"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Bill<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" alt="Senior Energy Engineer 28Jun2012" src="cid:image003.jpg@01CDF989.19F2F100" width="480" height="114"></span></a><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Poling<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:33 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Two questions in the same day...I may have more still :)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
Has anyone taken the time (maybe Nick?) to determine if there is a major impact due to leaving walls of adjoining shells as exterior instead of changing them to interior, air-walls, or deleting them? I only ask because I have a 4M+ SF building that is requiring 20+ shells stacked and adjacent and I'm looking for every time saver I can find. I simplified the shells as much as possible, but due to geometry this is the smallest number I can squeak by with from an orientation/geometry/overlap.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I should note, this is an existing building and the model is being more or less calibrated, so just having a rough idea of the impact of this nuance will allow me to decide to take the time or to chalk it up in my model error.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks much!<br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>