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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hey Jeremy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If I can correctly assume most of these are “sandwiched” walls as you’ve described them as adjacent shells (thus shading each other from solar gains)… Pretty
simply, the impact or “degree of error” such phantom skin loads introduces will vary primarily with how heavily the annualized exterior conditions differ from the conditioned set points inside. More specifically: If it’s a building in a very mild & temperate
climate (San Diego comes to mind), the extraneous loads introduced will be much less severe than somewhere like Kansas City.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That said, “a pretty big deal” could describe the impact for your project just about anywhere. Particularly if you’re making comparisons with/without self-shading,
a la LEED.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I agree the fastest approximation to address this in detailed mode is probably to simply delete all ‘false’ exterior perimeter walls, as suggested. This might
actually be <u>MUCH</u> easier using the 2D plan view option over the 3D view however. It’ll show you one shell at a time (depending on what’s highlighted in the tree), and you can very easily/accurately use the graphic to select the appropriate walls from
the component tree (if you’re familiar enough with the layout in 2D to recognize which walls go away).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I reckon correcting this may very well help bring your lighting consumption effects to the forefront. If not, the benefits of reducing installed watts should
be easy enough to demonstrate with simple math however, outside of an energy model ;).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CDF990.CB3A39D0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, P.E.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Poling<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 23, 2013 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sami, Vikram<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Bill and Vikram - with most buildings this would be an easy solution, but with this particular building the problem involves hundreds of these exterior surfaces. Unfortunately, the changes in building geometry are not minor enough
to simplify - bump outs exceeding 20 feet, changes in direction and angle of the building, etc. I should have noted that the 4M+ SF is spread across 4 floors...<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'll take a look at it once the architecture is finally complete in the model. I'll have to do it as best as possible in the 3D view since without a pan feature I can't get close enough to the tails of the building to visualize the sections
that are exterior.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If anyone does have an idea on what percentage of the load these phantom skin loads can add up to in more typical cases, that would be helpful: following ASHRAE 14 there's room for some small percentage error adjustments due to things like
this. To put it a little differently, we're recommending the owner finish changing the last few incandescents to alternate sources (depending on application, LED or CFL) but the threshold for showing up as a percentage of energy use in the building is so
high all of the incandescent sources remaining wouldn't show up on the simplified results in eQuest. :) Fun "little" project, yes?<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Sami, Vikram <<a href="mailto:Vikram.Sami@perkinswill.com" target="_blank">Vikram.Sami@perkinswill.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I agree with Bill – don’t leave them as exterior walls – you will get non existent skin loads in
those zones. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Another thing worth trying (if you are going through the wizard) is to make the building footprint
slightly bigger than the zone footprint on that side of the building. Like this:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><img border="0" width="853" height="565" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image004.jpg@01CDF990.CB3A39D0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You will end up with interior walls in those zones like so:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><img border="0" width="852" height="533" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image005.png@01CDF990.CB3A39D0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hope this helps</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#DCAA2C"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Vikram Sami</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">, LEED
AP BD+C</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Sustainable Design Analyst</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">t:
<a href="tel:404-443-7462" target="_blank">404-443-7462</a> f: </span><span lang="ES" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"><a href="tel:404.892.5823" target="_blank">404.892.5823</a> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">
e: <a href="mailto:vikram.sami@perkinswill.com" target="_blank">vikram.sami@perkinswill.com</a>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.perkinswill.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray;text-decoration:none">www.perkinswill.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:3.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Perkins+Will.</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#ADD425">Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeremy Poling; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">
equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Jeremy,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Well, every one of those extraneous exterior walls (and roofs) is going to be simulated as envelope
loads on those spaces. The model doesn’t know that they aren’t actually exposed to the outdoors. I would certainly delete them for any model, calibrated or otherwise, if it were me. You could determine the impact, relatively quickly, by modifying the U-factor
of your wall construction based on the ratio of modeled exterior wall area to actual exterior wall area. Get your modeled wall area from the last page of the LV-D report, and divide by the actual wall area of the existing building. Divide the wall construction
U-factor by the modeled-to-actual wall ratio, and modify the wall construction accordingly. Simulate and see how much the energy is reduced. Okay, never mind that sounds like too much work. Just delete the walls.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If you’re in that much of a hurry, don’t replace the exterior walls with interior walls. Just delete
the exterior surfaces and be done with it. I usually add the interior walls, especially if the adjacent spaces have different thermostat setpoints or different internal loads. These edits can be pretty quick when you modify the 3-D view to more easily see
where the extra surfaces are:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="425" height="298" id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image006.jpg@01CDF990.CB3A39D0"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="480" height="114" id="_x0000_i1028" src="cid:image007.jpg@01CDF990.CB3A39D0" alt="Senior Energy Engineer 28Jun2012"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Poling<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Adjacent Shells</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Two questions in the same day...I may have more still :)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Has anyone taken the time (maybe Nick?) to determine if there is a major impact due to leaving walls of adjoining shells as exterior instead of changing them to interior, air-walls,
or deleting them? I only ask because I have a 4M+ SF building that is requiring 20+ shells stacked and adjacent and I'm looking for every time saver I can find. I simplified the shells as much as possible, but due to geometry this is the smallest number
I can squeak by with from an orientation/geometry/overlap.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I should note, this is an existing building and the model is being more or less calibrated, so just having a rough idea of the impact of this nuance will allow me to decide to take
the time or to chalk it up in my model error.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks much!<br clear="all">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC<o:p></o:p></p>
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