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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Thanks to everyone for the reply, it has been very helpful.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">David Eldrigde,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">We have checked the internal loads and we did had some unrealistic results which we resolved shortly. The proposed envelope is not as good as the baseline, so the total load is about 14% greater
for the proposed. We pulled the baseline cfm result from the HVAC summary… It seems unlikely that a 14% reduction in load could account for 50% less air flow for the baseline. What do you think? Thank you for the support!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">We are still having the same issue, but will continue to work on it.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Ing. Gastón Michaud F.
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> Tel.: (506) 2222-7529<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> Fax: (506) 2256-5608<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> From USA: 1-305-433-3668</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> David Griffin [mailto:dgriffin@etcgrp.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 06, 2012 3:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Busman, Michael R'; Gastón Michaud F.; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Eric Fischel J.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline CFM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Gaston,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">I agree with Mike. When I have run into the issue in the past, I have solved it by reviewing my schedules and internal loads to make sure they are realistic.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Thanks</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">David Griffin</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#B8CCE4">Energy Analyst</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">ETC Group, LLC</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">801.278.1927 ext. 128</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365D">Cell 480.235.0899</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">1997 South 1100 East, Suite 201, Salt Lake City, UT 84106-4471 –
<a href="http://www.etcgrp.com/">www.etcgrp.com</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Busman, Michael R [mailto:MBusman@chevron.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 06, 2012 12:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gastón Michaud F.; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Eric Fischel J.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Baseline CFM</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Gaston,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">I don’t know if this will help you or not. I don’t claim to be an expert in eQUEST, however, I started doing hourly simulations about 1983 and in another life, spent 17 years with Hilton Hotels
Corp., so I do know a little about how hotels operate.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">I have found that simulations aren’t the greatest for sizing systems versus a load design program, except maybe in the case of a central plant where load diversity can be accounted for. In a hotel,
you need to design for worst case or almost worse case conditions in the individual spaces even though they may not operate that way. A couple of examples. For the guest room PTAC units, you probably need to size for the draperies open, guests in the room,
and maybe the TV or a couple of lights on. In reality, the guest is out of the room most of the day and the maid probably closes the draperies and turns off the TV and lights. So, you might simulate how the room is occupied and used versus sizing the PTAC
capacity. As another example, if the guest is out of the room, he/she is probably out of the hotel, in the restaurant, or perhaps, in a meeting in the ballroom. Since the guest cannot be in two places at once, you need to look at the sizing versus the operation
of the public spaces. Generally a ballroom area will have a large prefunction/registration/coffee break area outside the ballroom. If you decide you want 2 systems, one for the ballroom and one for the prefunction area, you’ll size the systems for the peak
load of those spaces. If you decide to design a single VAV system for both the ballroom and prefunction area, you will have a smaller system than the total capacity of the two separate systems as it will track the load as guests move back and forth between
the ballroom and prefunction area.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">It sounds like the VRF systems for the first 3 floors were designed/sized on the airside for the peak load of the separate spaces, but the cooling capacity took diversity into account, similar to
a central chiller plant.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">You might want to look at how you defined the separate spaces and the amount of internal load diversity from the hourly schedules.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">I hope John Aulbach will chime in. He’s been using DOE-2 since you had to chisel the calcs on a stone tablet and was a consultant to Hilton for many years, so he also knows how hotels operate.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">My best,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Mike Busman</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Michael R. Busman, CEM</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Lead Project Engineer II</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chevron Energy Solutions</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gastón Michaud F.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 06, 2012 10:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Eric Fischel J.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Baseline CFM</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Good morning everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We are having an issue with the calculated total fan flow of the baseline case and was wondering if someone could help me out. We are modeling a 12 floor hotel, with a VRF system in the first three floors and PTAC’s
in the remaining 9 (rooms); for a total conditioned area of about 92325 sf. The baseline case is modeled with a system 2 per ASHRAE appendix G. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The following table summarizes our issue:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<td width="174" valign="top" style="width:130.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-left:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Baseline case</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Proposed case</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Total cooling capacity</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">281.5 tons<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">247 tons<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Design airflow rate</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">39700 cfm<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">80500 cfm<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We used the automatic calculation from eQuest (leaving both capacity and fan flow blank) for the baseline case, and the actual mechanical design for the proposed case. For some reason, the baseline calculation for the
fan flow seems to be very low, and was wondering if anyone has had a similar issue regarding the automatic calculations from eQuest. If so, has anyone found a solution?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If we analyze other estimates, eQuest is calculating about 0.43 cfm/sf for the baseline, which also seems very low compared to other projects we have worked with. We are also thinking of using the following formula to
estimate the baseline fan flow: Sensible btu=1.09*cfm*dT; but with this approach we get a fan flow about 50% more that the proposed, which also seems unlikely. Any suggestions for estimating the baseline fan flow which LEED reviewers accept?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks you very much, hope someone can help us out. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Ing. Gastón Michaud F.
</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Tel.: (506) 2222-7529</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Fax: (506) 2256-5608</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> From USA: 1-305-433-3668</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Calle 30, Avenida 0 y 2. San José, Costa Rica</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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