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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ritwik,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">For better or worse, I agree with Maria that PTAC/PTHP should be applied to the entire multifamily building. I disagreed with a LEED reviewer’s requirement that I separate a three-story dorm project into residential/nonresidential
portions. I mentioned the example of the User’s Manual case study that Maria described below, but I changed the baseline anyway to keep from going back and forth with the reviewer. I complied with the LEED reviewer’s request by using System 3 per nonresidential
zone instead of System 1. What a waste of time for negligible energy impact.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If you feel compelled to model additional system types for nonpredominant conditions, I guess you use System 3 or 5 based on the floor area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"><span style="text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="480" height="114" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD7C7E.EAE3E5E0" alt="Senior Energy Engineer 28Jun2012"></span></a><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan Miller<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 17, 2012 1:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Maria Karpman'; 'Ritwik Kakati'; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Baseline secondary HVAC system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">It kind of falls in that grey-area of whether you get to CHOOSE to apply the exceptions listed in G3.1.1 or whether you SHOULD apply them if they are applicable to your project.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The emphasis the in following excerpts is mine.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">G3.1.1 exception a states: “Use additional system types for non-predominant conditions (i.e.
<b><i>residential/nonresidential</i></b>, or heating source)…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The same footnote you reference in table G3.1.1A states “Residential building types include dormitory, hotel, motel, and multifamily.
<b><i>Residential space types include guest rooms, living quarters, private living space, and sleeping quarters. Other building and space types are considered nonresidential.</i></b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">To me it feels like exception a says use additional system types for non-resi spaces, such as retail or corridors because they will have different loads and operational hours, though I can see your point as well.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’ve never had a LEED reviewer tell me to use PTAC/PTHPs for corridors, but I’d be willing to bet others have used these systems for corridors and also not received comment on them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:1.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">Nathan Miller, PE, LEED<sup>
</sup>AP BD+C<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Mechanical Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">D</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">206-788-4577 |</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">O</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#A50021">
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">206-285-7100</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a></span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Maria Karpman [mailto:maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 17, 2012 9:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Nathan Miller'; 'Ritwik Kakati'; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] LEED Baseline secondary HVAC system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#17375E">I would argue that residential system type (PTAC/PTHP) should be applied to the entire multifamily building. The heading of the first column in Table G3.1.1A is Building Type, not
Space Type<b>. </b>The note below the table reads “Residential building types include dormitory, hotel, motel, and multifamily….”</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#17375E">.
</span><span style="color:#17375E">If the baseline</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#17375E">
</span><span style="color:#17375E">HVAC should be determined solely based on the conditioned floor area and number of floors of residential versus non-residential spaces, then why was the building type used as column heading and in the note below the table?
A case study in 90.1 User Manual involves a building with 4 multifamily and 4 non-residential floors. The 4-storey 54,000 SF non-residential portion in the case study is modeled with System 5, and the 4 residential floors are modeled with PTACs.
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">If corridors/stairwells in multifamily buildings are modeled with non-residential baseline HVAC, then most multifamily buildings over 5 floors would have System 7 serving these areas. I agree with Nathan that it doesn’t makes
much sense, especially since most of these spaces are indirectly conditioned by losses through interior walls of apartments.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D">Maria<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan Miller<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 17, 2012 11:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Ritwik Kakati'; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] LEED Baseline secondary HVAC system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Based on the exact wording of the Table G3.1.1A, I would say you are System 7, which is for “<u>Nonresidential and more than 5 floors</u> OR >150,000 SF. However, we all can see that it is probably a pretty ridiculous
baseline system for a corridor ventilation unit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">On multifamily projects I’ve worked on, I’ve used system 5 in the past (even though the floor number requirement would trigger system 7) and never been called on it. That being said, usually that was on projects
with ~7 stories, so I was much closer to the threshold, so maybe the LEED reviewer just let it slide. Even System 5 is a bit peculiar for a corridor unit. At least in my climate they end up usually being packaged rooftop, constant volume units.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:1.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">Nathan Miller, PE, LEED<sup>
</sup>AP BD+C<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Mechanical Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">D</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">206-788-4577 |</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F">
</span><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">O</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#A50021">
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">206-285-7100</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#BFAB7F"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a></span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]">[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ritwik Kakati<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] LEED Baseline secondary HVAC system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am modeling a residential building under LEED 2009. With reference to ASHRAE 90.1-2007, Exception ‘a’ in section G3.1.1 which states that we should use additional system types for nonpredominant conditions if they apply to more than 20,000
SF of conditioned space – I am confused which system type I should use for my corridors and other non-residential conditioned spaces, which are about 21,000 SF total, spread across 20 floors. Do I use System 7, because my non-residential spaces are located
on more than 5 floors, or use System 3 or 5 because the area is less than 25,000 SF?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Ritwik Kakati, LEED</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Green Associate</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Design Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Eras Medium ITC","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">DAGHER ENGINEERING,
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Eras Medium ITC","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PLLC</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">29 Broadway, New York, NY 10006<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">T. 212.480.2591 x140<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">F. 212.480.2654<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:rkakati@dagherengineering.com">rkakati@dagherengineering.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a href="http://www.dagherengineering.com">www.dagherengineering.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600">Save Trees, Consider the Environment. Please print only when necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">This email and any attachments may contain confidential or proprietary information and use or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, please notify us and delete. Dagher Engineering, PLLC has no responsibility for errors or discrepancies that may occur in the electronic transmission of data.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">No virus found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5204 - Release Date: 08/16/12<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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