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<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ASHRAE
fundamentals has design information on stratification and on
supply air throws etc. You are getting into some pretty
advanced modelling which eQuest won't do and your customer won't
pay for. Also remember the Cambridge sheet is done by marketers
and advertisers not engineers. I'm sure the unit will do much
of what it claims but I don't think this is what you want to do
if you are designing an energy efficient building. You are
going to be able to control the buildings air leakage with good
design. What you need initially is an idea of how much heat the
building needs and how much fresh air. A MUA unit is only used
to temper the incoming fresh air and can be used for
pressurization. They are not used for heating. Too much
pressurization is a problem as well. It doesn't necessarily
reduce ACH, maybe a little if it is set up right and there is no
wind. A supply air fan can be configured with diffusers to give
you a high velocity discharge which will mix the air in the
building. It will, if the air is released high enough also
entrain some of the hot stratified air at the ceiling and bring
it down with the main air flow. This flow will drive down into
the cooler air near the floor and mix. This warmer air will
also want to rise as it is less dense than the cooler air in the
building and a circulation flow can be established. I say can
because generally a warehouse is full of racks floor to ceiling
which will prevent this circulation pattern from happening. You
are going to have many dead zones which will need stratification
fans. You may not want all of these fans pushing air down. You
will need another form of heat independent from the MUA unit to
provide the rest of the heat the building requires because
heating a building with 100% OA is not efficient nor would
regular building require this much fresh air. Consult ASHRAE
62.1 to determine how much OA that you need. Consult SB-10
January 2012 of the OBC. You will find it will reference ASHRAE
92.1 with exceptions. You must follow these codes. They will
also dictate your allowable lighting loads. If you are dumping
a lot of air then heat recovery becomes an option. A warehouse
can also have a lower heating set point which will reduce heat
loss through the envelope. They typically don't have to be
cooled. But that brings up another problem, summer heat. You
need ventilation to remove heat. Economizers work very well in
Canada. If you use a AHU with an economizer you don't need a
MUA unit. A warehouse is a building with tons of mass, over
cool it at night with an economizer set at 100% exhaust, let the
air stratify and exhaust the hot air off the bottom of the
roof. Go to minimum fresh air in the heat of the day and let
the mass provide cooling. Stratification fans are not bad in
the heating season as all the heat they make and energy they use
stays inside the building.<br>
This problem comes down to visualization. You can calculate
with reasonable accuracy if your supply fan discharge will get
down to the floor. If you do it at an isle crossing you will
get 4 circulations in the isles. Put a up-blast stratification
fan between the supply air diffusers to assist. Outboard areas
require you to see the air flows and decide if an up or a down
flow fan gives you the most benefit. You can't rip the sheets
off the order pickers clip board either.<br>
With your auto size load at 300% you will need to determine
why. Check your people count, outside air and check
infiltration. Compare OA to 62.1. Check your envelope losses,
compare them to the engineers heat loss. When it comes to heat
loss OA is the elephant. Check all the eQuest defaults, many
will have to be changed.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
</font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/08/2012 04:57 PM, Adam Barker
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Michael,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The weather
file is representative of the area, and I did run an auto
sized load, which calculated heating and airflow capacities
much higher than what was specified (about 3x higher on
average off the top of my head).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">You raise a
good point regarding de-stratification – reduced
stratification is another claim the company boasts, as the
building is pressurized. The claim to cut ACH due to
infiltration in half. I believe the team is looking into
reducing the # of de-stratification fans in response to
this. I searched the forums for how to model
de-stratification about 2 weeks ago and came up with a few
threads basically hinting that it can’t be accurately done.
Does anyone have a different opinion, or know if a way where
this can at least be approximated? I want to avoid playing
with the infiltration rates as I do not believe that is
acceptable for a LEED model (at least here in Canada it
isn’t). As of now I have not modeled this effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The combustion
problem is somehow managed through some limited venting,
though I can’t remember exactly what is going on, which is
why I called them ‘direct’ fired units.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Adam
Barker</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">,
C.E.T., LEED AP BD+C</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Sustainability Project
Manager</span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Provident
Energy Management Inc.</span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">T:
416-736-0630 x 1874 | <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:abarker@pemi.com">abarker@pemi.com</a> </span><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Busman, Michael R [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:MBusman@chevron.com">mailto:MBusman@chevron.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Adam Barker; 'equest-users'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Cambridge direct fired units in
warehouse space<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Adam,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I haven’t had
any experience with the Cambridge unit, nor am I able to
answer your question about the unmet heating hours. Have
you tried auto-sizing just for a cfm and Btuh capacity
comparison with the mech engineer’s load calc? Also, is the
weather file representative of the warehouse location?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Because the
building is a warehouse, it triggered a question in my mind
that somebody else might be able to answer. That is if
eQUEST models thermal stratification in high bay areas such
as warehouses or hangars? If so, it may calculate unmet
hours on the coldest days near floor level and a nice warm
temperature at ceiling/roof level. Just a wild thought.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Mike Busman<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Michael
R. Busman, CEM</span></b><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Lead
Project Engineer II</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chevron
Energy Solutions</span></b><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">A
Division of Chevron U.S.A., Inc.</span><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">145
S. State College Blvd.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Brea,
CA 92821 </span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Direct
714-671-3561</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Fax
714-671-3438</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">eFax
866-420-0335 (Include my Full Name followed by "CAI:MHTZ" on
Cover Sheet)</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile
310-387-2083</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mbusman@chevron.com">mbusman@chevron.com</a></span><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]">[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adam Barker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'equest-users'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Cambridge direct fired
units in warehouse space<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I was recently asked to model the impact of
Cambridge ‘direct’ fried air handling units for a warehouse
building compared to a conventional MUA with supply and
exhaust. Has anyone had experience with these units?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">They boast a very low fan power consumption
(5 hp for 8565 cfm of air), 92% thermal efficiency, and a
temperature rise and max discharge temp of 160 F.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Most of the inputs are straightforward
however I am not sure I am modeling the 160 F temperature rise
properly. As of now I have Packaged Single Zone systems and
have entered 160 F as both the ‘zone entering max supply temp’
and ‘hot deck max leaving temp’. Would this fully capture that
temperature rise? I ask as I am getting about 150-200 unmet
heating hours in these zones, even though all other inputs are
as per the mechanical engineer. Is this significant, or
likely just the difference between how eQuest and the
mechanical engineer size their loads? The building is a cold
climate (southern Ontario, Canada) LEED building, so I want to
make sure I am modeling as much benefit as possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Adam
Barker</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">,
C.E.T., LEED AP BD+C</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Sustainability Project
Manager</span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Provident
Energy Management Inc.</span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">T:
416-736-0630 x 1874 | <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:abarker@pemi.com">abarker@pemi.com</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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