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<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Actually
ASHRAE 90.1 is the reference standard not 92.1<br>
Bruce<br>
</font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/08/2012 07:25 PM, Bruce
Easterbrook wrote:<br>
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<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ASHRAE
fundamentals has design information on stratification and on
supply air throws etc. You are getting into some pretty
advanced modelling which eQuest won't do and your customer
won't pay for. Also remember the Cambridge sheet is done by
marketers and advertisers not engineers. I'm sure the unit
will do much of what it claims but I don't think this is what
you want to do if you are designing an energy efficient
building. You are going to be able to control the buildings
air leakage with good design. What you need initially is an
idea of how much heat the building needs and how much fresh
air. A MUA unit is only used to temper the incoming fresh air
and can be used for pressurization. They are not used for
heating. Too much pressurization is a problem as well. It
doesn't necessarily reduce ACH, maybe a little if it is set up
right and there is no wind. A supply air fan can be
configured with diffusers to give you a high velocity
discharge which will mix the air in the building. It will, if
the air is released high enough also entrain some of the hot
stratified air at the ceiling and bring it down with the main
air flow. This flow will drive down into the cooler air near
the floor and mix. This warmer air will also want to rise as
it is less dense than the cooler air in the building and a
circulation flow can be established. I say can because
generally a warehouse is full of racks floor to ceiling which
will prevent this circulation pattern from happening. You are
going to have many dead zones which will need stratification
fans. You may not want all of these fans pushing air down.
You will need another form of heat independent from the MUA
unit to provide the rest of the heat the building requires
because heating a building with 100% OA is not efficient nor
would regular building require this much fresh air. Consult
ASHRAE 62.1 to determine how much OA that you need. Consult
SB-10 January 2012 of the OBC. You will find it will
reference ASHRAE 90.1 with exceptions. You must follow these
codes. They will also dictate your allowable lighting loads.
If you are dumping a lot of air then heat recovery becomes an
option. A warehouse can also have a lower heating set point
which will reduce heat loss through the envelope. They
typically don't have to be cooled. But that brings up another
problem, summer heat. You need ventilation to remove heat.
Economizers work very well in Canada. If you use a AHU with
an economizer you don't need a MUA unit. A warehouse is a
building with tons of mass, over cool it at night with an
economizer set at 100% exhaust, let the air stratify and
exhaust the hot air off the bottom of the roof. Go to minimum
fresh air in the heat of the day and let the mass provide
cooling. Stratification fans are not bad in the heating
season as all the heat they make and energy they use stays
inside the building.<br>
This problem comes down to visualization. You can calculate
with reasonable accuracy if your supply fan discharge will get
down to the floor. If you do it at an isle crossing you will
get 4 circulations in the isles. Put a up-blast
stratification fan between the supply air diffusers to
assist. Outboard areas require you to see the air flows and
decide if an up or a down flow fan gives you the most
benefit. You can't rip the sheets off the order pickers clip
board either.<br>
With your auto size load at 300% you will need to determine
why. Check your people count, outside air and check
infiltration. Compare OA to 62.1. Check your envelope
losses, compare them to the engineers heat loss. When it
comes to heat loss OA is the elephant. Check all the eQuest
defaults, many will have to be changed.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
</font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/08/2012 04:57 PM, Adam Barker
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Michael,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The weather
file is representative of the area, and I did run an auto
sized load, which calculated heating and airflow
capacities much higher than what was specified (about 3x
higher on average off the top of my head).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">You raise a
good point regarding de-stratification – reduced
stratification is another claim the company boasts, as the
building is pressurized. The claim to cut ACH due to
infiltration in half. I believe the team is looking into
reducing the # of de-stratification fans in response to
this. I searched the forums for how to model
de-stratification about 2 weeks ago and came up with a few
threads basically hinting that it can’t be accurately
done. Does anyone have a different opinion, or know if a
way where this can at least be approximated? I want to
avoid playing with the infiltration rates as I do not
believe that is acceptable for a LEED model (at least here
in Canada it isn’t). As of now I have not modeled this
effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The
combustion problem is somehow managed through some limited
venting, though I can’t remember exactly what is going on,
which is why I called them ‘direct’ fired units.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Adam
Barker</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">,
C.E.T., LEED AP BD+C</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Sustainability Project
Manager</span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Provident
Energy Management Inc.</span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">T:
416-736-0630 x 1874 | <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:abarker@pemi.com">abarker@pemi.com</a> </span><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Busman, Michael R [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:MBusman@chevron.com">mailto:MBusman@chevron.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Adam Barker; 'equest-users'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Cambridge direct fired units in
warehouse space<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Adam,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I haven’t had
any experience with the Cambridge unit, nor am I able to
answer your question about the unmet heating hours. Have
you tried auto-sizing just for a cfm and Btuh capacity
comparison with the mech engineer’s load calc? Also, is
the weather file representative of the warehouse location?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Because the
building is a warehouse, it triggered a question in my
mind that somebody else might be able to answer. That is
if eQUEST models thermal stratification in high bay areas
such as warehouses or hangars? If so, it may calculate
unmet hours on the coldest days near floor level and a
nice warm temperature at ceiling/roof level. Just a wild
thought.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Mike Busman<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Michael
R. Busman, CEM</span></b><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Lead
Project Engineer II</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chevron
Energy Solutions</span></b><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">A
Division of Chevron U.S.A., Inc.</span><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">145
S. State College Blvd.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Brea,
CA 92821 </span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Direct
714-671-3561</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Fax
714-671-3438</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">eFax
866-420-0335 (Include my Full Name followed by "CAI:MHTZ"
on Cover Sheet)</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile
310-387-2083</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mbusman@chevron.com">mbusman@chevron.com</a></span><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]">[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adam Barker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'equest-users'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Cambridge direct fired
units in warehouse space<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I was recently asked to model the impact
of Cambridge ‘direct’ fried air handling units for a
warehouse building compared to a conventional MUA with
supply and exhaust. Has anyone had experience with these
units?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">They boast a very low fan power
consumption (5 hp for 8565 cfm of air), 92% thermal
efficiency, and a temperature rise and max discharge temp of
160 F.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Most of the inputs are straightforward
however I am not sure I am modeling the 160 F temperature
rise properly. As of now I have Packaged Single Zone
systems and have entered 160 F as both the ‘zone entering
max supply temp’ and ‘hot deck max leaving temp’. Would this
fully capture that temperature rise? I ask as I am getting
about 150-200 unmet heating hours in these zones, even
though all other inputs are as per the mechanical engineer.
Is this significant, or likely just the difference between
how eQuest and the mechanical engineer size their loads?
The building is a cold climate (southern Ontario, Canada)
LEED building, so I want to make sure I am modeling as much
benefit as possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Adam
Barker</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">,
C.E.T., LEED AP BD+C</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Sustainability Project
Manager</span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Provident
Energy Management Inc.</span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">T:
416-736-0630 x 1874 | <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:abarker@pemi.com">abarker@pemi.com</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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