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<DIV>Good points Nick and Jeremy (as usual).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The design team totally ignored these walls and floor for sizing equipment
– treated them as adiabatic -- with good reason that I did not state. The
internal process loads include (which will answer Jeremy’s curiosity) the
accelerator, cyclotron, power supply, and high-energy beam containment mazes for
a proton therapy machine. The walls and slab are so thick to shield the
outside areas from stray radiation, and also keep the machine from experiencing
any movement (really tight tolerance). The process loads are really big,
over 1200 kW electrical demand but with a reasonable load factor. Process
loads in the building are about 40% of total energy.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I’ve learned a lot, it’s wild.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Since all the math was done, I did simulate the spaces by themselves with
the thickest heavy-weight concrete the program would allow, and again with
adiabatic and massy walls. The overall difference in site energy use was
truly negligible.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My main concerns were in choosing the route that most closely meets the
rules in App G, and explaining it in my LEED documentation.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You have both been quite helpful. I’ll post back when I have come to
a conclusion, and will follow up if review comments arise.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best to all of you,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jeremy.poling@att.net
href="mailto:jeremy.poling@att.net">Jeremy Poling</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 16, 2012 6:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=ncaton@smithboucher.com
href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">Nick Caton</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=dave.weigel@thewattdoctors.com
href="mailto:dave.weigel@thewattdoctors.com">Dave Weigel</A> ; <A
title=equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Equest-users] Really thick concrete walls, partitions,
and floor</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV>I'd recommend going with Nick's suggestion of a steady-state model with
input from the design team as far as their load calculations go (assuming you
aren't also the mechanical designer). From Section 3 Definitions in ASHRAE
90.1-2007, both C-Factor and R-Value are defined by ASHRAE to be steady-state
values and while U-Value is not, it would be safe to assume the intention of the
standard is a steady-state model for Appendix G. Also, EER values are
defined as steady-state ratings for equipment.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Genreally, the energy modeling from Appendix G is not intended to be an
exact prediction of energy use of a building the year it opens, or a year
after. This is explicitly stated in G1.2(2):</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Neither the proposed building performance nor the baseline building
preformance are predictions of actual energy consumption or costs for the
proposed design after construction. Actual experience will differ from
these calculations due to variations such as occupancy, building operation and
maintenance, weather, energyuse not covered by this procedure, changes in energy
rats between the design of the building and occupacy, and the precision of the
calculation tool."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now, I don't bring up that paragraph to dredge up long conversations of the
accuracy of energy models, but if the concern is really how to get an accurate
model out of this unique circumstance, I'd suggest citing this paragraph
directly, in additon to the references before from Section 3, when explaining
why you used a steady-state model.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The bigger curiosity for me is...what exactly are you building here? :)<BR
clear=all></DIV>
<DIV>Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Nick Caton <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com"
target=_blank>ncaton@smithboucher.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi
Dave,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From
a LEED perspective, I think you have a lot of liberties here to model or not
model specific elements. The critical thing is for documentation to be
clear & open regarding the decisions you make and be sure to apply
those decisions uniformly between the models.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Heat
of curing is something you could opt to not model at all – reasonably choosing
to model the eventual “steady state” as that should best represent the
building’s long term annual internal load profile. If you should choose
to include this internal heat load for the model - intuitively I would expect
to see this applied identically to both models as a uniform space equipment
load (assigned to a “free” meter) for all affected spaces (perhaps with an
annual fractional profile that reduces/eliminates the load over time, per your
referenced calculations).<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">How
to model that future “steady state” after heat of curing probably poses the
more interesting conundrum – I would defer to your mechanical designers to
take an approach to envelope loads to match their plans for sizing the heating
equipment. Some might consider the huge thermal lag of the
earth/concrete masses to render heat transfer negligible over time (which
would bend you towards modeling thermally massive but adiabatic
partitions). Others might consider the surrounding earth a constant heat
drain and insulate or bump heating equipment capacities accordingly.
From a LEED modeling perspective, best advice is to not make assumptions that
disagree with the rest of the design team – communicate and move forward with
a consensus.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">~Nick<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Stylus BT','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(45,77,94)">NICK
CATON, P.E.</SPAN></B><B><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave Weigel<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 16, 2012 12:41 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
<A href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target=_blank>equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[Equest-users] Really thick concrete walls, partitions, and
floor<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hi
group,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I have a
building with 8-foot concrete floor slab (50 feet below grade), 3- to 6-foot
below-grade exterior walls, and 3- to 8-foot interior partitions in the
sub-grade shells.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
wondered if anyone had a quick hint they could give me, particularly in light
of LEED 2009 review that will happen. The calculus is done, and the
transfer function time constant is so huge that the inner surface temperature
of the walls just isn’t going to vary much. Ground temperature is 60°F
all year and doesn’t vary. After they are poured, it’ll take 8 to 10
months for the 8-foot walls to cool down to indoor (conditioned) ambient
temperature just from the heat of curing.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Any
comments or experience will be most
appreciated.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thanks,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dave<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'times','serif'">David R.
Weigel, PE</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'times','serif'">Managing
Member</SPAN><SPAN
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<DIV>
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