<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">If you
are manipulating the envelope you should be looking at the
envelope reports. Specifically LS-B, then LS-C. This is the
only way you will see the actual effect of the windows before
the data is lumped with everything else. You will also notice
the elephants in the room, lights and occupants. Occupants are
indirect and equal outside air. Have the lights been upgraded?
RTU are notorious for being poorly set-up and are the first
thing a building manager plays with when the bills get too high,
they turn down or off the outside air. You haven't mentioned
energy bills, you really need them when you are doing this kind
of work. They are a check on the accuracy of your assumptions
in eQuest and what is actually going on in the building. You
won't likely get that close to actual costs but they are a good
order of magnitude indicator. Check SV-A which will give you
people counts and outside air. If your lights or your people
are out, or both you won't see the window changes in the gross
numbers.<br>
After that it is trouble shooting. Most problems in eQuest are
input errors or incorrect assumptions. It is quite accurate
when you get everything right in your input. But it is a model
and you are using canned weather so everything is relative not
exact.<br>
As for the naysayers, some people like Ford and some like GM,
but in the end they are just 4 wheels to get you down the road.
If you can't keep your wheels out of the ditch it is not their
fault.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
</font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/07/2012 08:47 PM, Peter Baumstark
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1342399668.93037.YahooMailRC@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">It's
an interesting problem. With this model, no matter what I do,
if I manually change the SHGC or SC (if I use the U-Value
method), or if I select different glazing types from the library
(with different SHGC values), no matter what face of the
building I change it, I get an increase in overall monthly
energy use with a lower SHGC.<br>
<br>
I built the model through a zone by activity area method that
pretty closely matches the various zones of the building. It's
a VAV with terminal reheat system (1995 Trane Intellipaks), and
I entered actual economizer, static pressure and SAT settings.
Airflow matches as-built design drawings.<br>
<br>
I tried using other eQUEST models I've built for other customers
using similar methods, changed the location to San Jose, and ran
window cases and results were as expected.<br>
<br>
I'm coming to believe that one issue with the building in
question is the RTUs seem over sized relative to the use
patterns and internal heat gains. This building previously had
various lab areas, then was purchased by another customer with
lower internal heat load rates, but they kept the same RTUs.<br>
<br>
Could it be possible that the lower heat gains from better
fenestration products could place the RTUs at a more inefficient
spot on its performance curve? I've ran into similar issues
with chilled water systems, but never looked at DOE-2
performance curves for DX units.<br>
<br>
Pete<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times,
serif;font-size:12pt"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Paul Diglio <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net"><paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Joe
Huang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com"><yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com></a>; CleanTech
Analytics <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jeremiah@cleantechanalytics.com"><jeremiah@cleantechanalytics.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sun,
July 15, 2012 5:03:54 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Equest-users] Unexpected Custom SHGC Results<br>
</font><br>
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times,
serif;font-size:12pt;">Joe:<br>
<br>
I agree. I find the comment to be more than mildly
offensive. <br>
<br>
I have the same experience that funky modeling results
usually are the result of flawed inputs or depending on
too many eQuest defaults.<br>
<div> </div>
Paul Diglio, CEM, CBCP<br>
<br>
<div>87 Fairmont Avenue<br>
New Haven, CT 06513<br>
203-415-0082</div>
<br>
<br>
<div><span><a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" href="http://www.pdigliollc.com">www.pdigliollc.com</a></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york,
times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york,
times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><font face="Tahoma"
size="2">
<hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Joe Huang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com"><yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com></a><br>
<b><span style="
font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> CleanTech
Analytics <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jeremiah@cleantechanalytics.com"><jeremiah@cleantechanalytics.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Sun, July 15, 2012 7:21:54 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Equest-users] Unexpected Custom SHGC Results<br>
</font><br>
I've found this comment to be mildly offensive as
well as showing a lack of understanding about how
heat gains ultimately get translated to cooling
energy consumption. It's extremely hard for me to
believe that eQUEST or DOE-2 has been flawed for 25
years in modeling something as fundamental as solar
heat gain through windows. In all the decades I've
used DOE-2 to analyze window performance for DOE's
EnergyStar Program as well as numerous other
projects, whenever the results did not match or ran
counter to first-principle expectations, it was
always because there was some other factor that have
been overlooked or ignored, chief among them being
the size of the HVAC system, its configuration, and
control strategy. Locations with mild cooling
loads, such as San Jose, are particularly sensitive
to such system interactions. Were both runs done
using "autosizing"? What<br>
kind of a system was modeled - VAV or CAV ? Did
the model have an economizer? What were the
HEAT-CONTROL and COOL-CONTROL strategies ? etc.
It's far too early to lay blame on the DOE-2
algorithms.<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
On 7/14/2012 1:41 PM, CleanTech Analytics wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="#336666"><font
face="verdana,sans-serif">Just admit it-
eQuest is flawed, you don't have to make up
things to protect it- </font></font>
<div>
<div><font color="#336666"><font
face="verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana,
sans-serif">If it is a mistake to use the
percent points rather then percent reduced
from the abrataty eQuest assumption from
1999 window specs than the it should have
reduced solar heat gain by more then his
product even provided- Using the 33
percentage points but used the 33% should
have provided him over stated cooling
reduction, (and extra added heating
consumption tradeoff) </font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana,
sans-serif;">O- and FYI </span>LBL<span
style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana,
sans-serif;"> window does glass U-value not
shading, ware-as </span>LBL<font
color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif">
optics can be used for film coefficients and
used to create a custom glass type in
window, but do not do any calculations for
"shading"</font></div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana,
sans-serif;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana,
sans-serif">I say you try the same model in
Energy Plus or TRNSYS and see if the results
differ.</font></div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana,
sans-serif;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font color="#336666"><font
face="verdana,sans-serif"><br clear="all">
</font></font>
<div style="text-align:left;"><font
color="#999999" face="verdana, sans-serif"><i>Jeremiah
D. Crossett</i></font></div>
<div style="text-align:left;"><font
color="#999999" face="verdana, sans-serif"><i>CleanTech
Analytics</i></font></div>
<div style="text-align:left;"><font
color="#999999" face="verdana, sans-serif"><i><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow">503-688-8951</a></i></font></div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:left;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank"
href="http://www.cleantechanalytics.com"><font
color="#999999" face="verdana,
sans-serif"><i>www.cleantechanalytics.com</i></font></a></div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:center;"> <br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:center;"><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
src="http://cleantechanalytics.com/images/stories/cleantech%20analytics%20120.PNG"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><b>
<p dir="ltr"
style="text-align:center;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;">
<span
style="vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(204,204,204);font-style:italic;font-size:11px;white-space:pre-wrap;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Droid
Serif';font-weight:normal;">This
document may contain valuable
information proprietary to CleanTech
Analytics which is private and
confidential. It may not be shared,
copied, stored or transmitted in any
form without the prior written
consent of CleanTech Analytics</span></p>
</b></div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 14, 2012
at 12:42 PM, Liam O'Brien <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:obrien_liam@hotmail.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:obrien_liam@hotmail.com">obrien_liam@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"> Hi Pete,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't have a ton of experience
with detailed modelling of shades in
eQUEST, specifically, but two things
that could be at play:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- The claim from the manufacturer
sounds like it's not intended to
universal in absolute terms. Also,
it would be more conservative to
reduce the SHGC by 3<span
style="font-size:10pt;">3 percent
than 33</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;"> </span><u
style="font-size:10pt;">percentage
points</u><span
style="font-size:10pt;"> (as you
did)</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;"> if you're
going to take this simplified
approach. Therefore, it would be
closer to SHGC=0.44. Subtle but
significant. You could try using
software that specializes in
window/shade performance like LBNL
Window or Parasol to try to
characterize the performance of
your specific shade-glazing
combination</span></div>
<div>- Depending on the operating
conditions and construction of the
building, there's a chance your
results aren't ridiculous. If shades
intercept transmitted solar
radiation, then a lot of that energy
will almost immediately transfer to
the air via convection. If you have
thermally massive interior surfaces,
there's a chance your building could
actually perform better without
those shades because the air
conditioning won't kick in till
later. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Liam</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012
11:51:02 -0700<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:pbaumstark@sbcglobal.net"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:pbaumstark@sbcglobal.net">pbaumstark@sbcglobal.net</a><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Equest-users] Unexpected
Custom SHGC Results
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div>Hello,<br>
<br>
I have an "L" shaped
building with the point of
the "L" facing North. The
inside of the "L" has both
NE and NW surfaces, that
include a high amount of
glass, which heats up the
perimeter building spaces
considerably during the
summer. Glazing is single
pane tinted.<br>
<br>
The customer wants to
install some Verisol
SilverScreen shades in
these windows. According
to the manufacturer, the
SHGC will reduce by about
33%. I modeled in eQUEST,
window properties in these
windows to have an SHGC of
0.67 and ran an EEM
reducing SHGC to 0.34, and
got an increase in cooling
load and fan load year
round, even in the summer
months.<br>
<br>
Am I seeing this wrong? I
can't figure out how I
could possible get results
like this?<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
Pete<br>
San Jose, CA<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a>
To unsubscribe from this mailing
list send a blank message to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Equest-users mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank"
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send
a blank message to <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank" href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Joe Huang White Box Technologies, Inc. 346 Rheem
Blvd., Suite 108D Moraga, CA 94556 (o)
(925)388-0265 (c) (510)928-2683 <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank"
href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com">www.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
"Building energy simulations at your fingertips"</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>