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<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">You bring
up a good point here Jeremy. One item which is almost never
mentioned is the amount of water in the building materials. A
yard of fresh concrete has a substantial amount of water in it
which will require removal from the space. One other item to
consider with concrete is its ability to wick moisture from the
surrounding earth. You should consider a vapour barrier on the
interface of the concrete and the surrounding soil. Design your
concrete to dry inwards. It will be hard on your HVAC system
for the first year or 2 but it will solve a big problem for the
next century. Moisture is expensive to evaporate and remove.
The possible use of temporary dehumidification equipment might
assist in keeping your regular systems sized correctly. Large
internal heat gains would be best placed against the outer walls
to use the soil as a passive heat sink.<br>
And I thought dam builders only had these problems. <br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
</font></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/07/2012 06:41 PM, Jeremy Poling
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CANzYtnTV+DyWFpBKdz9JOg7h+-wBAC_Rcw8ODgzyo_hYNXdDLA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>I'd recommend going with Nick's suggestion of a steady-state
model with input from the design team as far as their load
calculations go (assuming you aren't also the mechanical
designer). From Section 3 Definitions in ASHRAE 90.1-2007, both
C-Factor and R-Value are defined by ASHRAE to be steady-state
values and while U-Value is not, it would be safe to assume the
intention of the standard is a steady-state model for Appendix
G. Also, EER values are defined as steady-state ratings for
equipment.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Genreally, the energy modeling from Appendix G is not
intended to be an exact prediction of energy use of a building
the year it opens, or a year after. This is explicitly stated
in G1.2(2):</div>
<div> </div>
<div>"Neither the proposed building performance nor the baseline
building preformance are predictions of actual energy
consumption or costs for the proposed design after
construction. Actual experience will differ from these
calculations due to variations such as occupancy, building
operation and maintenance, weather, energyuse not covered by
this procedure, changes in energy rats between the design of the
building and occupacy, and the precision of the calculation
tool."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Now, I don't bring up that paragraph to dredge up long
conversations of the accuracy of energy models, but if the
concern is really how to get an accurate model out of this
unique circumstance, I'd suggest citing this paragraph directly,
in additon to the references before from Section 3, when
explaining why you used a steady-state model.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The bigger curiosity for me is...what exactly are you
building here? :)<br clear="all">
</div>
<div>Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Nick
Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"
class="gmail_quote">
<div vlink="purple" link="blue" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Hi
Dave,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">From
a LEED perspective, I think you have a lot of
liberties here to model or not model specific
elements. The critical thing is for documentation to
be clear & open regarding the decisions you make
and be sure to apply those decisions uniformly
between the models.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Heat
of curing is something you could opt to not model at
all – reasonably choosing to model the eventual
“steady state” as that should best represent the
building’s long term annual internal load profile. If
you should choose to include this internal heat load
for the model - intuitively I would expect to see this
applied identically to both models as a uniform space
equipment load (assigned to a “free” meter) for all
affected spaces (perhaps with an annual fractional
profile that reduces/eliminates the load over time,
per your referenced calculations).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">How
to model that future “steady state” after heat of
curing probably poses the more interesting conundrum –
I would defer to your mechanical designers to take an
approach to envelope loads to match their plans for
sizing the heating equipment. Some might consider the
huge thermal lag of the earth/concrete masses to
render heat transfer negligible over time (which would
bend you towards modeling thermally massive but
adiabatic partitions). Others might consider the
surrounding earth a constant heat drain and insulate
or bump heating equipment capacities accordingly.
From a LEED modeling perspective, best advice is to
not make assumptions that disagree with the rest of
the design team – communicate and move forward with a
consensus.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">~Nick</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><img
alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"
src="cid:part2.00080903.02090007@bellnet.ca"
height="37" width="119"></span><b><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif"">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif""></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(204,153,0);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt">SENIOR
ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(204,153,0);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:7.5pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">Smith
& Boucher Engineers</span><span
style="color:rgb(204,153,0);font-size:7.5pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">olathe,
ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">direct
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:913.344.0036"
target="_blank" value="+19133440036">913.344.0036</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(45,77,94);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">fax
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"
href="http://www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span
style="color:blue;font-size:10pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="color:blue;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">
</span></u><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium
medium;border-style:solid none
none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor
currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Weigel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 16, 2012 12:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Really thick
concrete walls, partitions, and floor</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Hi
group,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I
have a building with 8-foot concrete floor
slab (50 feet below grade), 3- to 6-foot
below-grade exterior walls, and 3- to 8-foot
interior partitions in the sub-grade shells.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I
wondered if anyone had a quick hint they
could give me, particularly in light of LEED
2009 review that will happen. The calculus
is done, and the transfer function time
constant is so huge that the inner surface
temperature of the walls just isn’t going to
vary much. Ground temperature is 60°F all
year and doesn’t vary. After they are
poured, it’ll take 8 to 10 months for the
8-foot walls to cool down to indoor
(conditioned) ambient temperature just from
the heat of curing.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Any
comments or experience will be most
appreciated.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Thanks,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Dave</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span
style="font-family:"times","serif"">David
R. Weigel, PE</span></strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"times","serif"">Managing
Member</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"times","serif"">1189
Golden Circle SW, Lilburn GA 30047</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"times","serif""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:678-353-6941" target="_blank"
value="+16783536941">678-353-6941</a>
office <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:901-619-1716" target="_blank"
value="+19016191716">901-619-1716</a>
cell</span></p>
</div>
</div>
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