<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">Joe:<br><br>I agree. I find the comment to be more than mildly offensive. <br><br>I have the same experience that funky modeling results usually are the result of flawed inputs or depending on too many eQuest defaults.<br><div> </div>Paul Diglio, CEM, CBCP<br><br><div>87 Fairmont Avenue<br>New Haven, CT 06513<br>203-415-0082</div><br><br><div><span><a target="_blank" href="http://www.pdigliollc.com">www.pdigliollc.com</a></span><div><br></div><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><br><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Huang <yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com><br><b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">To:</span></b> CleanTech Analytics <jeremiah@cleantechanalytics.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sun, July 15, 2012 7:21:54 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] Unexpected Custom SHGC Results<br></font><br>
I've found this comment to be mildly offensive as well as showing a
lack of understanding about how heat gains ultimately get translated
to cooling energy consumption. It's extremely hard for me to
believe that eQUEST or DOE-2 has been flawed for 25 years in
modeling something as fundamental as solar heat gain through
windows. In all the decades I've used DOE-2 to analyze window
performance for DOE's EnergyStar Program as well as numerous other
projects, whenever the results did not match or ran counter to
first-principle expectations, it was always because there was some
other factor that have been overlooked or ignored, chief among them
being the size of the HVAC system, its configuration, and control
strategy. Locations with mild cooling loads, such as San Jose, are
particularly sensitive to such system interactions. Were both runs
done using "autosizing"? What<br>
kind of a system was modeled - VAV or CAV ? Did the model have an
economizer? What were the HEAT-CONTROL and COOL-CONTROL strategies
? etc. It's far too early to lay blame on the DOE-2 algorithms.<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
On 7/14/2012 1:41 PM, CleanTech Analytics wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="#336666"><font face="verdana,sans-serif">Just
admit it- eQuest is flawed, you don't have to make up things
to protect it- </font></font>
<div>
<div><font color="#336666"><font face="verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</font></font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#336666">If it is a
mistake to use the percent points rather then percent
reduced from the abrataty eQuest assumption from 1999 window
specs than the it should have reduced solar heat gain by
more then his product even provided- Using the 33 percentage
points but used the 33% should have provided him over stated
cooling reduction, (and extra added heating consumption
tradeoff) </font></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#336666"><br>
</font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana, sans-serif;">O-
and FYI </span>LBL<span style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana, sans-serif;">
window does glass U-value not shading, ware-as </span>LBL<font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#336666"> optics can be
used for film coefficients and used to create a custom glass
type in window, but do not do any calculations for "shading"</font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana, sans-serif;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#336666">I say you
try the same model in Energy Plus or TRNSYS and see if the
results differ.</font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana, sans-serif;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font color="#336666"><font face="verdana,sans-serif"><br clear="all">
</font></font>
<div style="text-align:left;"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999"><i>Jeremiah D. Crossett</i></font></div>
<div style="text-align:left;"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999"><i>CleanTech Analytics</i></font></div>
<div style="text-align:left;"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999"><i><a rel="nofollow">503-688-8951</a></i></font></div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:left;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.cleantechanalytics.com"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999"><i>www.cleantechanalytics.com</i></font></a></div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:center;">
<br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:center;"><img src="http://cleantechanalytics.com/images/stories/cleantech%20analytics%20120.PNG"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><b>
<p dir="ltr" style="text-align:center;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;">
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 12:42 PM,
Liam O'Brien <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:obrien_liam@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:obrien_liam@hotmail.com">obrien_liam@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
Hi Pete,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't have a ton of experience with detailed
modelling of shades in eQUEST, specifically, but two
things that could be at play:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- The claim from the manufacturer sounds like
it's not intended to universal in absolute terms.
Also, it would be more conservative to reduce the
SHGC by 3<span style="font-size:10pt;">3 percent than
33</span><span style="font-size:10pt;"> </span><u style="font-size:10pt;">percentage points</u><span style="font-size:10pt;"> (as you did)</span><span style="font-size:10pt;"> if you're going to take
this simplified approach. Therefore, it would be
closer to SHGC=0.44. Subtle but significant. You
could try using software that specializes in
window/shade performance like LBNL Window or
Parasol to try to characterize the performance of
your specific shade-glazing combination</span></div>
<div>- Depending on the operating conditions and
construction of the building, there's a chance your
results aren't ridiculous. If shades intercept
transmitted solar radiation, then a lot of that
energy will almost immediately transfer to the air
via convection. If you have thermally massive
interior surfaces, there's a chance your building
could actually perform better without those shades
because the air conditioning won't kick in till
later. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Liam</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 11:51:02 -0700<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:pbaumstark@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:pbaumstark@sbcglobal.net">pbaumstark@sbcglobal.net</a><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Equest-users] Unexpected Custom SHGC
Results
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div>Hello,<br>
<br>
I have an "L" shaped building with the
point of the "L" facing North. The inside
of the "L" has both NE and NW surfaces,
that include a high amount of glass, which
heats up the perimeter building spaces
considerably during the summer. Glazing
is single pane tinted.<br>
<br>
The customer wants to install some Verisol
SilverScreen shades in these windows.
According to the manufacturer, the SHGC
will reduce by about 33%. I modeled in
eQUEST, window properties in these windows
to have an SHGC of 0.67 and ran an EEM
reducing SHGC to 0.34, and got an increase
in cooling load and fan load year round,
even in the summer months.<br>
<br>
Am I seeing this wrong? I can't figure
out how I could possible get results like
this?<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
Pete<br>
San Jose, CA<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
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(c) (510)928-2683
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