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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I agree completely Robby – I do not mean to discount defining all vertices possible as a practice. I oftentimes do the same whenever zoning is not perfectly
orthogonal =). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The point I mean to drive home is the reasons for doing so are to eliminate user-error-based issues, and not due to some mysterious or unknowable flaw of the
program/interface. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For what it’s worth and to join the chorus, locking to vertices wherever possible is
<u>always</u> a good idea. Defining additional vertices is never a bad idea (in moderation). When defining geometries, rather than toe the line of “close enough” I have found it easiest to follow the slightly slower, more deliberate path of “exactly right.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">To Omer’s recent query: floor-to-floor thermal ties are generated automatically by the wizards if you define multi-story shells, but not otherwise. IIRC,
NEXT-TO thermal ties between shells always require some degree of detailed mode editing, though it is not uncommon to conclude such transfers can be safely omitted from a model (further discussion in the archives). In any case, this is one of many reasons
to prioritize minimizing the quantity of shells, within reason.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best of luck!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD5EBC.F8379FF0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Robby Oylear [mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 10, 2012 3:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton<br>
<b>Cc:</b> omoltay@mimtarch.com; eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Internal Wall Problems with Wizard<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It's the "might" that makes it worthwhile to define your vertices exactly in the same location if you want an interior partition created between the two. eQUEST does have some capability for approximating your intent of two vertices being
adjacent, however I have not been able to determine where the tipping point is between "close enough" and "ADIABATIC". <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">As mentioned above, the same can go for exterior walls where sometimes eQUEST does pick up on the fact that your single vertex on an exterior floor line should result in an exterior wall, however I've witnessed plenty of cases where an
interior wall gets created on an exterior exposure.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">-Robby<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Nick Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sorry my reply is coming late to the party…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Robby’s illustration is helpful and the point is well taken as a ‘best practice’ to avoid user-errors
during geometry defnition, but I think I can dispel the “next-to” concerns here and show this is simpler than it may seem…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I recreated your illustration with a quick dummy model and confirmed the quantity of vertices (4
vs. 6) for “zone 1” has zero effect on the quantity of internal partitions created/assigned. In any case I try to define it, the model is generated with all appropriate partitions and next-to inputs (I cannot recreate Omer’s issue as described with spaces
not being tied together or adiabatic partitions being created).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The only thing I can think of for Omer’s situation is that (1) it’s worth noting the model should
be making only <u>one</u> partition for any two adjacent spaces (it will be a child component of one or the other), and (2) partitions might go missing/adiabatic if the spaces’ vertices aren’t being defined accurately enough and there’s actually a small gap
between the spaces. To that end maybe Robby’s suggestion to define each vertex possible is a good housekeeping approach to avoid such issues of definition. The only remaining ways you will end up with adiabatic internal partitions is if you actually define
them as such in the footprint map where you define zoning patterns and/or in the subsequent wizard shell screens.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR ENGINEER</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe, ks 66061</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct
<a href="tel:913.344.0036" target="_blank">913.344.0036</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax
<a href="tel:913.345.0617" target="_blank">913.345.0617</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robby Oylear<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:54 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:omoltay@mimtarch.com" target="_blank">omoltay@mimtarch.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQUEST Users List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Internal Wall Problems with Wizard<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I should probably clarify that the vertices shown in the sketch belong to Zone 1. It is not enough to just define those vertices in Zones 2-4.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">-Robby<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Robby Oylear <<a href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com" target="_blank">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Omer,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The simplest way to ensure that eQUEST defines the NEXT-TO property correctly is to make sure that each interior wall only interfaces with one other interior wall. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">In the situation you describe where you have an interior wall that is adjacent to more than one zone, I would typically split that interior wall into two or three walls by adding
vertices at each of the intersections between the zones and the interior wall that spans them.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Here's a sketch of what I'm describing:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hope that helps.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="1387250b23c0a113_1387197ba50757d6__MailA"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#632423">Robby Oylear,
</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#632423">PE, LEED AP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Mechanical Engineer</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Senior Energy Analyst</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">D</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><a href="tel:206-788-4571" target="_blank">206-788-4571</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<a href="http://www.rushingco.com/" target="_blank"><b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#632423">www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Ömer Moltay <<a href="mailto:omoltay@mimtarch.com" target="_blank">omoltay@mimtarch.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dear All,<br>
<br>
I have realized that while creating the model after Wizard entries, eQuest will fail to determine the NEXT-TO property for interior walls that are adjacent to more than one zone and all those interior walls will be defined as ADIABATIC.<br>
<br>
Also, I see that interior walls are missing from zones where another zone has an ADIABATIC wall in the same place.<br>
<br>
I see no way of having a model with all interior walls correctly defined without fixing all these problems after the Wizard. Does everybody have the same experience or am I missing something?<br>
<br>
Ömer Moltay, LEED AP BD+C, ASHRAE BEMP, CPMP, BREEAM Assessor<br>
Mimta EcoYapi<br>
Hekimsuyu Cad. 559. Sk. No:39<br>
34255 Kucukkoy Istanbul Turkey<br>
Tel: 90-212-617-2296<br>
Fax: 90-212-617-2297<br>
<a href="http://www.ekoyapi.net" target="_blank">www.ekoyapi.net</a><br>
<a href="http://www.mimtasolar.com" target="_blank">www.mimtasolar.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.mimtarch.com" target="_blank">www.mimtarch.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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