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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I looked into ARI standards a few years back, and even though they do specify range of conditions for testing, the 365 W per 1000 CFM used by eQUEST is a pretty good approximation of them. This number is explicitly mentioned as default fan power for certain systems in the standard. Since both the flow rate and static pressure at the testing conditions depend on system size, W/CFM can conceivably be independent of system capacity. As far as your rhetorical question (sorry about unsolicited answer), I believe resistance/no heat category should never be used for the baseline Systems 1, 3 or 5 because these systems have fossil fuel heating based on able G3.1.1B. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Maria<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Paul Riemer [mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Maria Karpman'; 'Paul Diglio'; 'Nick Caton'; 'Steve Burley'; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Maria has brought me closer to the testing protocol side (thanks Maria) but I am still struggling a bit with it. The AHRI standards do not regulate cfm/ton or W/cfm directly , they bound cfm/ton and require a minimum external static value that varies by system size. Hence the assumptions that I am tempted to scrutinize especially when 90.1 Ap G requires a 20F DT and some equipment has DC/EC motors. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(Rhetorical questions: What am I looking at when my custom AHU selection shows an EER value? For the baseline should I always start with the electric resistance/no heat EER value because the difference between the EER values is mostly due to the added static of the heating coil?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Lake is too muddy today, should have never gotten in…back to the dock.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#5F574F'>Paul Riemer, PE, LEED AP BD+C</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#C00000'>DUNHAM</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#C00000'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Maria Karpman <a href="mailto:[mailto:maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net]">[mailto:maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 31, 2012 3:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Paul Diglio'; 'Nick Caton'; Paul Riemer; 'Steve Burley'; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Here is the way I look at it. EER describes combined performance of the refrigeration system and fan at some given conditions. To isolate refrigeration system efficiency as required in G3.1.2.1, we need to take out the fan energy at the conditions for which EER is given. Since Section 6.4 gives EER at the ARI rating conditions, we need to use fan power at the ARI rating conditions in the EIR calculations. The same logic is followed by eQUEST Wizard, and is described in the eQUEST EER to EIR Conversion document that was shared on the forum many times before. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Once EIR is calculated, the next step is to model the fan power explicitly as required by G3.1.2.9. To get there, I use G3.1.2.9 to calculate total W/CFM for the baseline fan system, and then enter it into eQUEST allocating it between supply, return, etc. eQUEST Wizard similarly allows you to specify the actual fan power for the project via pressure drop in the ductwork and fan motor efficiency. I apply the same logic to the proposed design. To calculate proposed EIR, I use the fan power at the conditions for which EER is given, and then model fan power based on the fan system specified for the project.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Maria <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Paul Diglio <a href="mailto:[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net]">[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 31, 2012 3:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> Maria Karpman; Nick Caton; Paul Riemer; Steve Burley; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Maria:<br><br>Yes, I agree. I use the supply fan power at the design static from the manufacturer's data sheet for the proposed model. I then re-calculate the unit EER without the supply fan power, which raises the EER and lowers the EIR.<br><br>Perhaps I am misunderstanding the thread. It seems that some people are talking about the baseline because they reference Section 6. So it appears that some simulators are using the ARI fan rating instead of using G3.1.2.9 to calculate pfan for the baseline? It doesn't appear to be any wiggle room in G3.1.2.9 as it states:<br><br>"G3.1.2.9 Supply Fan Power. System fan electrical power<br>for supply, return, exhaust, and relief (excluding power to fanpowered<br>VAV boxes) shall be calculated using the following<br>formulas:"<br><br>Is this your understanding of the thread? I am a bit confused.<br><br>Regards, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Paul Diglio, CEM, CBCP<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>87 Fairmont Avenue<br>New Haven, CT 06513<br>203-415-0082<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br><a href="http://www.pdigliollc.com/">www.pdigliollc.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Paul Diglio, CEM, CBCP<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>87 Fairmont Avenue<br>New Haven, CT 06513<br>203-415-0082<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="http://www.pdigliollc.com">www.pdigliollc.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Maria Karpman <<a href="mailto:maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net">maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; Nick Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>>; Paul Riemer <<a href="mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com">Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com</a>>; Steve Burley <<a href="mailto:steve.burley@csa-eng.biz">steve.burley@csa-eng.biz</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Thu, May 31, 2012 2:57:23 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Paul, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I think we are all in agreement that Pfan must be calculated as described in G3.1.2.9 when modeling the baseline fans. This discussion is about extracting the fan energy from the rated EER when modeling system efficiency (EIR) to satisfy G3.1.2.1 quoted below:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>G3.1.2.1 <b>Equipment Efficiencies. </b>All HVAC equipment<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>in the <i>baseline building design </i>shall be modeled at the minimum<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i>efficiency </i>levels, both part load and full load, in accordance<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>with Section 6.4.Where <i>efficiency </i>ratings, such as EER<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>and COP, include fan energy, the descriptor shall be broken<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>down into its components so that supply fan energy can be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>modeled separately.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>G3.1.2.1 refers to efficiency requirements in Section 6.4, which in turn refers to efficiency at the rating conditions and not the project’s design conditions (see 6.4.1.1 included in my earlier email below). If the efficiency requirements in 6.4 were for the design conditions, then I would agree that Pfan should have been used to convert from EER to EIR.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Maria <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Paul Diglio <a href="mailto:[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net]">[mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> Maria Karpman; Nick Caton; Paul Riemer; Steve Burley; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I received a comment back from a recent LEED submission. The reviewer required that I calculate pfan per G3.1.2.9. I didn't argue since this increased my baseline energy consumption and increased my proposed savings.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Paul Diglio, CEM, CBCP<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>87 Fairmont Avenue<br>New Haven, CT 06513<br>203-415-0082<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="http://www.pdigliollc.com">www.pdigliollc.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Maria Karpman <<a href="mailto:maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net">maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> Nick Caton <<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>>; Paul Riemer <<a href="mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com">Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com</a>>; Steve Burley <<a href="mailto:steve.burley@csa-eng.biz">steve.burley@csa-eng.biz</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Thu, May 31, 2012 11:35:41 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nick, Steve and Paul,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I believe that using ARI fan power in EIR calculations is the way to go, because the efficiency tables in 90.1 Section 6 show the required performance at ARI conditions (see the last column in each table), not at the project conditions. Here is the related abstract from 90.1 Section 6:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>6.4.1.1 Minimum Equipment Efficiencies—Listed</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>Equipment—Standard Rating and Operating Conditions.</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Equipment shown in Tables 6.8.1A through 6.8.1G shall have<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>a minimum performance at the specified rating conditions<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>when tested in accordance with the specified test procedure.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>When a packaged system that meets 90.1 efficiency requirements at ARI conditions is installed in a project where the fan power is higher than in ARI testing procedure (e.g. projects with more extensive ductwork, air filters, energy recovery, etc.), it will have a lower actual EER than what’s listed in Section 6. However, this wouldn’t make the installation incompliant with mandatory efficiency requirements in 90.1 Section 6. In my experience, LEED reviewers do comment on EIR calculations if EIR is not what they expect. However, using Appendix G fan power in baseline EIR calculations typically results in a more stringent baseline (lower EIR), so they do not insist on changing it. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Maria<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]">[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:56 AM<br><b>To:</b> Paul Riemer; Steve Burley; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi Paul!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I maintained the exact same position for a long while, though I thought I was the vocal minority =)! Ultimately, you can argue for/against either approach as having different advantages of ‘correctness.’ I’ve heard future addenda or versions of 90.1 may address the conundrum by stipulating something more simplistic than either approach, like a uniform “factor” to come up with compressor/condenser energies from the total consumption.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>My final position is both approaches make sense, and for different reasons – modelers should use whichever they feel most comfortable defending should their methodology come into question. My LEED reviewers have to this point taken zero interest in which approach I’ve used in my calculations, after using both, so I take it this degree of nuance is probably not on their usual checklists. I’ve switched over to the ARI approach for a few reasons, but not because I feel a Pfan-based approach is ‘wrong.’<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD3FDD.6A1FE590" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>NICK CATON, P.E.</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Smith & Boucher Engineers<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com">www.smithboucher.com</a><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Paul Riemer <a href="mailto:[mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com]">[mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:29 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Steve Burley; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nick, Steve, and list,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I think I concur more with Steve. If you use Nick’s approach to calculate the cooling EIR by subtracting out ARI rated fan power from the 90.1 EER <u>AND</u> then model the 90.1 fan power limits directly, you will be modeling a packaged unit that does not comply with the package EER. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I could see using other splits of fan and cooling, but a baseline model should comply with both limits.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>Paul Riemer, PE, LEED AP BD+C</b> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>DUNHAM</b><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:51 AM<br><b>To:</b> Steve Burley; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Steve,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>There are two schools of thought for dealing with fan power in cooling efficiency calcs. The first pulls away the baseline fan power Pfan, as you’re describing, and the other instead pulls out a fan energy draw based on ARI testing procedures… 400 CFM/ton à 365W/1000CFM. I follow the latter these days, but see both as viable.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The two approaches result in similar results when your Pfan calculation doesn’t involve a lot of static pressure adders. When it does, the approaches diverge in a fashion that may be either problematic or helpful in a LEED rating sense. Attached discussion sums up things further, includes an outline of an ARI-based approach. You can find more discussions and read into advantages/disadvantages to both approaches in the mailing list archives.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>That said, I haven’t checked your math or references but the procedure you’ve roughly outlined sounds alright for a Pfan approach. There are steps in between what you’ve written for correctly coming up with Pfan, but I take it that’s implicit.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="_x0000_i1028" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD3FDD.6A1FE590" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>NICK CATON, P.E.</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Smith & Boucher Engineers<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com">www.smithboucher.com</a><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Burley<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:37 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] 90.1 App G Fan Power and EER Calculations<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I’m sure this must have been asked before but I cannot find an answer in the archives – if there is one please point me to it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I have interpreted the requirements of 90.1, App. G to split the EER of cooling equipment with a supply fan into its components to model the fan energy separately as follows:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph>1. Say a space has a cooling load of 80,000Btu/h and the system is packaged single zone, EER – 11.2.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph>2. Calculate airflow for 20°F temperature difference – 3708cfm<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph>3. Calculate fan bhp from Table G3.1.2.9 – 3.49bhp<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph>4. Calculate fan power as per G3.1.2.9 – 2972W<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph>5. Calculate gross input power from load and EER – 7143W<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph>6. Subtract 4 from 5 for compressor/condenser input power – 4171W<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph>7. Convert to EIR – 0.1779<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>This appears to make sense from reading App. G but ends up with high fan power consumption and low space cooling loads. Am I wrong here?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>Steven Burley</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>