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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David’s summary looks pretty good to me!<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I want to emphasis a great point that came up along the way:  Space by space can result in more LEED points by ‘padding the baseline,’ sure… But “real” savings
 result from closely reviewing the proposed design, which in turn generates opportunities to identify specific means of design improvement. 
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’ll share a related strategy.  Consider:  Engaging the lighting designer and improving design doesn’t
<u>require</u> tallying the space-by-space totals.  If I recognize significant improvements can be made with revised layouts, fixture reselection, and/or tweaked control schemes, I have found it VERY productive to simply share with the lighting designer (and
 design team leaders, if necessary) posed scenarios:  “If you can reduce your installed watts by just 10%, the LEED models will earn 2 more LEED points.”  “If you define your astronomical timeswitch to shut off non-critical lighting after 2AM, the project earns
 a LEED point.”  Such ‘carrot on a stick’ proposals normally get the intended results with minimal friction, engage the designers in a positive way (“Hey, I just earned the easiest LEED point ever!”) and performing the exploratory simulations to compose these
 proposals can be a lot less effort on the modeler relative to a standard-focused space-by-space analysis (I’m thinking of big buildings).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">From another perspective:  Some of us lighting designers are sensitive creatures =D… We may have a tough exterior, but deep inside it hurts my poor fragile
 feelings if someone claims “Standard XYZ states bla-bla-bla and therefore you suck at your job.”  This advice applies to designers of any discipline, of course.  If you want to pursue improving design with a standards-centric base, be mindful of this possibility.
  Making everyone happy to be working with an energy modeler can be quite a challenge, but the results are rewarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hope that was illuminating!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD390A.33B3CCD0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Eldridge<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 23, 2012 4:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> eQuest Users<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Building area method ASHRAE 90.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Patrick, the space-by-space LPD aren’t mandatory requirements, so you’d be able to trade lighting power through space-by-space or BAM. Someone will have to
 perform the take-off either way to calculate the BAM weighted LPD for the Proposed case, so you aren’t saving much time on the Proposed model. (Only saving the time to actually assign the Watts to the zone in the model.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There will be a small time savings in Baseline model creation by not determining and entering space-by-space power usage into the model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I agree with Bill that 90.1’s wording about “…if a lighting design exists…” points me towards space-by-space if at all possible. But GBCI seems to accept both,
 regardless of possible BAM inaccuracies which as Nick pointed out may or may not be significant, so the main result of this gigantic thread is:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">      
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Use the same method in both cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">      
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Several people think 90.1 suggests space-by-space if the lighting system is designed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">      
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Not always (ever?) enforced/requested by GBCI.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">b.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">     
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">When the model is being used to inform the design or calculate incentives, this is the more accurate approach if there is variance in the spaces for
 control types, LPD values, and occupancy schedules.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">      
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Although BAM may not provide the most accurate predictions of energy usage, it may still be “legal” for EAC1 point calculation purposes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">                                                                                               
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#244061">Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">                                                                                               
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQuest Users; Oscar B.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Building area method ASHRAE 90.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">referencing this comment:  "The only obvious case for using the Building Area Method to determine modeled LPD is the case that Nick mentioned where lighting
 neither exists nor is specified."</span><br>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
<span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">or when the lighting designer/electrical engineer has higher lighting densities that exceed one (or more) of the space-by-space maximum allowable lpds but compensates for it by having lower lpds in other
 spaces such that the whole building lpd does not exceed the maximum allowable by the whole building method.</span><br>
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On 5/23/12 7:45 AM, Bishop, Bill wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Building Area and Space-by-Space are not methods for designing lighting systems. They are prescriptive requirements for demonstrating lighting energy compliance
 in 90.1. The LPD allowances in Tables 9.5.1 and 9.6.1 do not need to be complied with if using energy modeling to demonstrate compliance for 90.1 and for LEED. (Only the Mandatory Provisions of 9.4 need to be met for the lighting design.) Energy modelers only
 need to know the lighting power and space use categorizations of the design as shown on the drawings (along with schedules and controls), not the process used to design it (which typically considers light levels in footcandles or lux).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I think that
<i>if</i> a lighting system has been designed, a strong argument can be made that the space-by-space method needs to be used in both the proposed and baseline cases, and that lighting power needs to be entered individually for each space/zone.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">               
<span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">“If construction documents are complete, the proposed building lighting system power is modeled as shown on the design documents.” (ASHRAE 90.1 User’s Manual, p. G-17)</span> 
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">“The LPD for the proposed design is taken from the design documents for the building. The LPD
 specified in the models must correspond to the spaces within each thermal block.” (ASHRAE 90.1 User’s Manual, p. 11-14 and also p. G-18)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The only obvious case for using the Building Area Method to determine modeled LPD is the case that Nick mentioned where lighting neither exists nor is specified.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As Maria Karpman, Nick and Patrick have mentioned, you are likely to show higher energy savings using the Space-by-Space method. Beyond that, using Space-by-Space
 allows you to give valuable feedback to the design team, which I would argue is a responsibility of energy modelers. It is routine for me to point out areas of potential improvement of the lighting design in every project I model, based on the allowances in
 Table 9.6.1. “Yes, Ms. Architect, that is a lovely looking light fixture, but 2.6 W/ft2 of lounge lighting is more than twice the baseline allowance.” I don’t know how you give helpful feedback if you are just comparing two building-averaged lighting power
 densities.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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