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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hmm, I think I’m on the fence here.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
My practice is identical to Vikram’s description for both energy modeling and when documenting compliance for my lighting designs: Choose whatever method you wish, but always use the same approach for baseline and proposed. This is pretty clear outside of
Appendix G, when documenting compliance. For modeling, I don’t use either approach predominantly – it depends on the project.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Since Patrick is pushing one side, I’ll play devil’s advocate =): I can affirm I’ve used “whole building” averaged LPD in proposed models for successful LEED
submission without incident multiple times, documenting that clearly along the way, but I was using “whole building” for the baseline as well in each instance. I do not personally read 90.1 or LEED to explicitly require LPD be defined with space-by-space
for a proposed model. Patrick, I just checked each of your citations and the only specific call for either method is when the lighting system has not been designed, in which case the whole building approach is prescribed. Keep in mind both methods should
sum to the same total installed watts for the proposed design.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Back to the neutral perspective: I’ll emphasis I do use both approaches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">To Oscar’s case: My general experience has been the whole building method is less generous in net allowable watts when you run the numbers both ways. In other
words, you may stand to earn more LEED points by making your baseline more detailed, using space by space. My suggestion for Oscar is to simply go with the reviewer’s flow and possibly walk away with another point tucked under your arm… it’ll probably be
a similar amount of effort on your part relative to composing an opposing response, and you won’t have to worry about the reviewer disagreeing =).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I agree space-by-space is ‘better’ for that reason alone – if different at all, it tends to yield a better performance rating. I will acknowledge space-by-space
is also “more accurate,” notably so if you’re simultaneously defining distinct & accurate lighting schedules space-by-space, but whether the corresponding additional time investment and resulting “accuracy boost” are advantageous for a given LEED model is
a toss-up. I personally feel the role accuracy plays in a LEED model is often overblown to a point of silliness, but that’s a personal call we each need to make and a whole ‘nother discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hot related tip: energy modelers and MEP designers alike need to be aware of COMcheck. I find it an invaluable time saver for speeding up takeoffs for whole
bldg & space by space calcs, and it’s only as costly as eQuest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD383F.615DE150" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sami, Vikram<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQuest Users; Oscar B.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Building area method ASHRAE 90.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">as long as a lighting system has been designed:<br>
<br>
according to ashrae/appendix g the uniform/whole building method applies a uniform lpd to the BASELINE building only while the PROPOSED uses what is designed - so long as the design is based on the whole building area method. the lpd of the PROPOSED design
should not be applied uniformly to the PROPOSED building simulation. <br>
<br>
see appendix g, table g3.1, section 6 lighting, subsection b, page 173 (2004), page 179 (2007). user's manual pages g-17/18 (2004 & 2007)<br>
<br>
i would suggest to quote table g3.1 when replying to the reviewer's comment. i have had reviewer's tell me i have to use the space-by-space method in a simulation for both proposed and baseline buildings. this is not correct. what is correct is that the
simulation reflect the methodology used by the lighting designer. if the lighting design is based on the whole building method then the whole building method maximum lpd is used in the BASELINE building. if the design is based on the space-by-space method
then the space-by-space maximum lpd for each space type is used in the BASELINE building. in either case the PROPOSED building should reflect what is designed. by 'what is designed' i mean look at the lighting plans, lighting schedules, and enter the lpd
for each space/zone (thermal block) based on the number of fixtures, watts per fixture, and square feet of space.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 5/22/12 2:15 PM, Sami, Vikram wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The building area method applies a uniform LPD to the entire building. If you do that in your baseline, you need to apply a uniform LPD to you proposed building
too. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In general, I don’t recommend using the building are method – the space by space method is a better approach.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#DCAA2C"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Vikram Sami</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">, LEED AP BD+C</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Sustainable Design Analyst</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">t: 404-443-7462 f:
</span><span lang="ES" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">404.892.5823 </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"> e:
<a href="mailto:vikram.sami@perkinswill.com">vikram.sami@perkinswill.com</a> </span>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.perkinswill.com/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray;text-decoration:none">www.perkinswill.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:3.0pt;text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Perkins+Will.</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#ADD425">Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Oscar B.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> eQuest Users<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Building area method ASHRAE 90.1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">How does the building area method work?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927248"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927251"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">I just got a comment from the review team for a project pursuing LEED certification.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927254"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927257"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">I used the building area method for the baseline case and in the proposed case I put the
<span class="mark">LPD</span> from the lighting design. However they told me that the same method has to be used in both cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927260"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927263"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Any help would be appreciate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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