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actually nick, i agree with you. since i don't design lighting
systems i always ask the lighting designer which method they're
using before i start building a model. almost all of the lighting
designer's i've worked with use the whole building area method,
though as you point out the space-by-space method can actually do a
bit better for energy savings.<br>
<br>
my point is that there isn't a mandate to use either the
space-by-space or whole building area method and there is no
justification as far as 90.1-200x is concerned for a usgbc reviewer
to claim that the space-by-space method be used. the requirement
per 90.1 is that the method be consistent in both the proposed and
baseline models. space-by-space in both or whole building in both.
this is what i've had to point out to reviewer's when i've received
comments. just quote chapter & verse to show that the method
(space-by-space or whole building) used meets the 90.1 app g
requirement and is applied the same in both models.<br>
<br>
as far as comcheck, comcheck reports from lighting designers are
only as good as the individual filling them out. i've had lighting
designers (with all of their extra letters including pe after their
names) fill them out incorrectly. i.e. not having all the lighting
fixtures the same in drawing schedules as input into comcheck, not
having same number of fixtures in drawings and in comcheck, not
having the same floor areas in drawings and in comcheck, and worst
of all, not using the same methodology in comcheck that they've used
to design the lighting system in the first place. yes, i've seen
comcheck reports that indicate space-by-space when the lighting
designer has told me whole building method. and vice versa. so i
always end up confirming my lighting take-offs (from the lighting
plans) and methodology with the lighting designer/electrical
engineer and their comcheck report.<br>
<br>
On 5/22/12 3:58 PM, Nick Caton wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:ECDF361A89E5FA479BE7E64C658B52050D8E1B6C@SANDBINC4.sbi.smithboucher.com"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hmm,
I think I’m on the fence here.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
My practice is identical to Vikram’s description for both
energy modeling and when documenting compliance for my
lighting designs: Choose whatever method you wish, but
always use the same approach for baseline and proposed.
This is pretty clear outside of Appendix G, when documenting
compliance. For modeling, I don’t use either approach
predominantly – it depends on the project.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Since
Patrick is pushing one side, I’ll play devil’s advocate =):
I can affirm I’ve used “whole building” averaged LPD in
proposed models for successful LEED submission without
incident multiple times, documenting that clearly along the
way, but I was using “whole building” for the baseline as
well in each instance. I do not personally read 90.1 or
LEED to explicitly require LPD be defined with
space-by-space for a proposed model. Patrick, I just
checked each of your citations and the only specific call
for either method is when the lighting system has not been
designed, in which case the whole building approach is
prescribed. Keep in mind both methods should sum to the
same total installed watts for the proposed design.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Back
to the neutral perspective: I’ll emphasis I do use both
approaches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">To
Oscar’s case: My general experience has been the whole
building method is less generous in net allowable watts when
you run the numbers both ways. In other words, you may
stand to earn more LEED points by making your baseline more
detailed, using space by space. My suggestion for Oscar is
to simply go with the reviewer’s flow and possibly walk away
with another point tucked under your arm… it’ll probably be
a similar amount of effort on your part relative to
composing an opposing response, and you won’t have to worry
about the reviewer disagreeing =).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
agree space-by-space is ‘better’ for that reason alone – if
different at all, it tends to yield a better performance
rating. I will acknowledge space-by-space is also “more
accurate,” notably so if you’re simultaneously defining
distinct & accurate lighting schedules space-by-space,
but whether the corresponding additional time investment and
resulting “accuracy boost” are advantageous for a given LEED
model is a toss-up. I personally feel the role accuracy
plays in a LEED model is often overblown to a point of
silliness, but that’s a personal call we each need to make
and a whole ‘nother discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hot
related tip: energy modelers and MEP designers alike need
to be aware of COMcheck. I find it an invaluable time saver
for speeding up takeoffs for whole bldg & space by space
calcs, and it’s only as costly as eQuest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.01010306.07050504@gmail.com"
alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" height="37"
width="119"></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK
CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span
style="font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR
ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith
& Boucher Engineers</span><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe,
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct
913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax
913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
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</span></u><span
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sami, Vikram<br>
<b>Cc:</b> eQuest Users; Oscar B.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Building area method
ASHRAE 90.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">as long as a lighting system has been
designed:<br>
<br>
according to ashrae/appendix g the uniform/whole building
method applies a uniform lpd to the BASELINE building only
while the PROPOSED uses what is designed - so long as the
design is based on the whole building area method. the lpd of
the PROPOSED design should not be applied uniformly to the
PROPOSED building simulation. <br>
<br>
see appendix g, table g3.1, section 6 lighting, subsection b,
page 173 (2004), page 179 (2007). user's manual pages g-17/18
(2004 & 2007)<br>
<br>
i would suggest to quote table g3.1 when replying to the
reviewer's comment. i have had reviewer's tell me i have to
use the space-by-space method in a simulation for both
proposed and baseline buildings. this is not correct. what
is correct is that the simulation reflect the methodology used
by the lighting designer. if the lighting design is based on
the whole building method then the whole building method
maximum lpd is used in the BASELINE building. if the design
is based on the space-by-space method then the space-by-space
maximum lpd for each space type is used in the BASELINE
building. in either case the PROPOSED building should reflect
what is designed. by 'what is designed' i mean look at the
lighting plans, lighting schedules, and enter the lpd for each
space/zone (thermal block) based on the number of fixtures,
watts per fixture, and square feet of space.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 5/22/12 2:15 PM, Sami, Vikram wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
building area method applies a uniform LPD to the entire
building. If you do that in your baseline, you need to apply
a uniform LPD to you proposed building too. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
general, I don’t recommend using the building are method –
the space by space method is a better approach.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#DCAA2C"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Vikram
Sami</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">,
LEED AP BD+C</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Sustainable
Design Analyst</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">1315
Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">t:
404-443-7462 f:
</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"
lang="ES">404.892.5823 </span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">
e:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vikram.sami@perkinswill.com">vikram.sami@perkinswill.com</a>
</span>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.perkinswill.com/"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray;text-decoration:none">www.perkinswill.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:3.0pt;text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Perkins+Will.</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">
</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#ADD425">Ideas
+ buildings that honor the broader goals of society</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Oscar B.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> eQuest Users<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Building area method
ASHRAE 90.1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">How
does the building area method work?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927248"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927251"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">I
just got a comment from the review team for a project
pursuing LEED certification.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927254"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927257"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">I
used the building area method for the baseline case and
in the proposed case I put the
<span class="mark">LPD</span> from the lighting design.
However they told me that the same method has to be used
in both cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927260"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" id="yui_3_2_0_20_1337697656927263"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Any
help would be appreciate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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