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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I’ve proceeded in the last days in my research for model validation and building prototypes which could serve as reference models for my research.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I finally found what I was looking for, and it looks like this has been the goal of a DOE project concluded in 2008. In the website I linked below, there are listed some models of commercial
building prototypes which have demonstrated to fit most of the commercial buildings in the US, and which could serve as a starting point for modeling energy efficiency measures without the risk of having results dependent on the specific modeling assumptions,
of course within reasonable ranges. There are also the IDF files which serve as input for E+.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">To recall the elephant and the mouse metaphor, here there’s probably a good reference for consistent mice and elephants prototypes, and that was exactly what I was looking for.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Here’s the website for your interest:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/commercial_initiative/reference_buildings.html">http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/commercial_initiative/reference_buildings.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Thanks again for your hints, and best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Stefano<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Stefano Moret<br>
<a href="http://cltc.ucdavis.edu/"><span style="color:blue">California Lighting Technology Center</span></a><br>
University of California, Davis<br>
633 Pena Drive<br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Davis, CA 95618<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">530-747-3846</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
<span style="color:black"><a href="mailto:smoret@ad3.ucdavis.edu"><span style="color:blue">smoret@ucdavis.edu</span></a></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>joe@thespinnakergroupinc.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 10, 2012 11:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> joe@thespinnakergroupinc.com; Shaun Martin; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Scale modeling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">And of course note you have multiple floors to deal with when you scale up...<br>
<br>
On second thought a better way to scale would he to maintain the ratio of<br>
length x width / height x ((2 x length) + (2 x width))<br>
<br>
If height is constant then a 10x10 space scaled up ten times floor area would best scale to something like 194x5.1 (excuse calculations, no calculator doing this at red lights). Where other issues arise like the exposure of the long face will make a big impact.<br>
<br>
If building modeling could be scaled for certain constants this easily them we could do it with little paper wheels like ductulators.<br>
<br>
Fun to think about though!<br>
<br>
Joe Fleming, PE, BEMP, LEED AP BD+C<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="htc_header">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "<a href="mailto:joe@thespinnakergroupinc.com">joe@thespinnakergroupinc.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:joe@thespinnakergroupinc.com">joe@thespinnakergroupinc.com</a>><br>
To: "Shaun Martin" <<a href="mailto:smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com">smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Equest-users] Scale modeling<br>
Date: Tue, Apr 10, 2012 1:44 pm<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
If the building is being scaled by some magnitude, then all dimensions need to be scaled equally. Otherwise, as has been mentioned in the previous emails, the ratio of envelope surface area to floor plan area will change. <br>
<br>
A 10x10x10 building, (heat/cool load-wise), will scale better to a 100x100x100 then it would to a 100x100x10, because the ratio of floor space to envelope area is maintained. Although only the top floor will have roof load. And a skylight will only effect
the top floor of the larger scale building. <br>
<br>
Can you change from a skylight to a window with daylighting? This would scale better.<br>
<br>
Joe Fleming, PE, BEMP, LEED AP BD+C<br>
<br>
----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Shaun Martin" <<a href="mailto:smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com">smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Equest-users] Scale modeling<br>
Date: Tue, Apr 10, 2012 1:16 pm<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Stefano,<br>
<br>
John's right on point (especially the elephant part). The results likely<br>
represent some sort of curve, and are probably multivariate. My suggestion<br>
would be to model large, medium and small scenarios and do hourly reports of<br>
the loads to see what is happening at different outside temperatures.<br>
<br>
Shaun Martin <br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]">[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a> On Behalf Of Eurek, John<br>
S NWO<br>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:31 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Scale modeling (UNCLASSIFIED)<br>
<br>
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED<br>
Caveats: NONE<br>
<br>
Shrews must eat 80-90 % of their own body weight in food daily. An elephant<br>
eats about 5% of their own body weight in food daily. <br>
<br>
The surface area to mass ratios are vastly different. Heat loss, metabolism<br>
(internal loads) and fur are very different.<br>
<br>
If an elephant had the fur of a mouse it would die from overheating.<br>
<br>
You can't model a small building and try to extrapolate the results to a<br>
large building.<br>
<br>
John Eurek<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]">[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a> On Behalf Of Karen<br>
Walkerman<br>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 4:18 PM<br>
To: Stefano Moret<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Scale modeling<br>
<br>
The short answer is that every building is different, and there is no<br>
"typical" model that will fit them all.<br>
<br>
As you mentioned, the ratio between lighting/cooling/heating changes<br>
depending on the size of the building. I'm willing to guess that this is<br>
because the core zones that have very little need for heat get much larger<br>
in relation to the perimeter zones. Also, the building energy needs will<br>
change depending on orientation and global location.<br>
<br>
I would suggest that you take a slightly different approach - try to come up<br>
with values that are representative for different types of spaces. You<br>
might do say:<br>
<br>
1. A perimeter office space with XX% glazing (run for North, East, South<br>
and West exposures) 2. A core office space with no skylights 3. A core<br>
office space with XX% of roof area as skylights 4. A core manufacturing<br>
space???<br>
5,6,7....<br>
<br>
Run each model in the applicable climate. Then, if you have an office<br>
building that is 70% core and 30% perimeter space, you'll have a better<br>
understanding of the building. This is still a very rough approximation,<br>
but should get you farther than trying to model one "typical" building.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Karen<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Stefano Moret <<a href="mailto:smoret@ucdavis.edu">smoret@ucdavis.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I've recently played around quite a bit with E-quest to simulate the<br>
effect of dynamic fenestration on building energy consumption. <br>
<br>
For these simulations I've been using a very simple office model<br>
with a skylight on the top as a test-bed for my calculations (with default<br>
system for HVAC and daylighting controls with dimming for lights) but,<br>
observing the values I'm obtaining in output, I see that the values I obtain<br>
for lighting, cooling and heating consumption make sense relatively, i.e. if<br>
compared to themselves in different conditions, but are sometimes of totally<br>
different order of magnitude if compared to each other (lighting/cooling<br>
loads are often much higher than heating, by orders of magnitude),<br>
especially when scaling up the model to bigger sizes. This way, it's very<br>
difficult to see the effect of a variable change on the total energy<br>
consumption. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I know the model I'm using is very idealized, but is there any<br>
variable that I can act on in order to obtain a model which has energy<br>
consumption values more similar to a real building? For example, is there a<br>
"suggested" size of the building that gives better results? Or maybe<br>
simulating a single room in a large building gives more realistic results<br>
than the single room alone? <br>
<br>
My point is that I would like to have a model whose results in scale<br>
might be consistent when applied to bigger buildings. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks for your hints and suggestions, <br>
<br>
Stefano<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Stefano Moret<br>
California Lighting Technology Center <<a href="http://cltc.ucdavis.edu/">http://cltc.ucdavis.edu/</a>>
<br>
University of California, Davis<br>
633 Pena Drive<br>
Davis, CA 95618<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
530-747-3846<br>
<a href="mailto:smoret@ucdavis.edu">smoret@ucdavis.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:smoret@ad3.ucdavis.edu">mailto:smoret@ad3.ucdavis.edu</a>> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED<br>
Caveats: NONE<br>
<br>
<br>
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