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Neil,<br>
<br>
eQUEST/DOE-2 does not use the CLTD method, which is a quasi-steady
state method from the late 70's for calculating heat gain through
the envelope. It uses Weighting Factors (also known as Room
Response Factors) that characterize the dynamic response of a space
for a given input of heat flow. Envelope heat flows are similarly
calculated using Response Factors that are also dynamic, i.e., they
capture the thermal lag and capacitance of the materials. Radiant
heat<br>
gains are taken into account in both response factors (using the
sol-air temperature method) and weighting factors (there are
different weighting factors for different types of heat gain).
However, radiant heat gains are ignored in interzone heat transfer.
Although DOE-2 doesn't compute inside surface temperatures, they can
be output (in DOE-2.1E at least) and I've that little-known feature
to do PMV calculations. Lastly, DOE-2 has always been able to model
the humidity of the indoor air. What it doesn't do (which may be
what you're thinking) is that it doesn't model the
absorption/desorption of<br>
moisture in the building fabric.<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="90">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
Moraga CA 94556
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com">www.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
</pre>
<br>
On 4/13/2012 1:19 PM, Neil Bulger wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:E9AD575374574E439EA4C93EC054103A011F9CD74406@vesuvius2.rumseyengineers.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html;
charset=us-ascii">
<div>
<p><span>Alex you are correct, eQuest does not know the surface
temperatures required to calculate the Mean Radiant
Temperature. eQuest /DOE2 uses the Cooling Load Temperature
Difference (CLTD) method to arrive at heat loads in a space.
This approach makes approximations of the radiant component
of heat transfer and does not directly calculate radiant
gains or losses. Because of this, any DOE2 based software at
best can predict air temperature and moisture needed for a
PMV calc. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>EnergyPlus or IES are the only engines that can produce
hourly surface temp information and therefore, mean radiant
temperature averages. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>If you are interested in providing comfort feedback of
envelope changes and not HVAC changes, learning EnergyPlus
using OpenStudio from NREL is well worth the time and
effort. Their workflow takes some practice to adopt but once
you get the hang of things, creating buildings is very easy.
Their youtube channel is best for explaining this, search
for OpenStudio and NREL. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<div>
<p><b><span>Neil Bulger</span></b><span><br>
</span><span>Project Engineer </span></p>
<p><b><span>________________________________</span></b><span>
</span></p>
<p><span>I N T E G R A L </span></p>
<p><b><span> </span></b><b><span> </span></b><b><span>GROUP</span></b><span>
</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>427 13th Street, Oakland CA 94612</span><span><br>
</span><span>510 663 2070 x 235<br>
</span><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nbulger@integralgroup.com"><span>nbulger@integralgroup.com</span></a></span><span><br>
</span><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.integralgroup.com/"><span>www.integralgroup.com</span></a></span><span>
</span></p>
<p><b><span>DEEP GREEN Engineering. </span></b></p>
<p><b><span>________________________________ </span></b></p>
</div>
<p><span> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><b><span>From:</span></b><span>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Alex Krickx<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 12, 2012 9:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kathryn Kerns<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Can you use eQuest
for PMV calculations? </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p><span>I’ll second the suggestion to purchase the Thermal
Comfort tool. It is easy to use. I believe that a newer
version was recently released – we’re still using the 1994
version. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>However, I’m not sure that it solves Jason’s problem –
it still requires a user-entered Mean Radiant Temperature
which I don’t believe eQUEST gives as an output. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>When we use the tool (specifically for perimeter
comfort analysis understanding the impact of different
glazing options on comfort) we make some assumptions on
wall/floor/ceiling temps, some calculations on
glass-temperatures, and some further assumptions on the
ratio of glass-to-other surfaces from the occupant’s
perspective. Based on that we can calculate the PMV for that
single point time with those conditions. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>I’ve used software in the past that was able to
calculate PMV for every hour of the year (so every hour it
would combine air temp, a calculated MRT based on surface
temps, humidity, etc) and then give an output for how
comfortable the space was throughout the year (with hourly
outputs of PMV for different spaces). I don’t believe that
eQUEST gives the necessary information (surface temps) to do
this type of analysis. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>I included Jeremiah’s response below which suggests
that Energy Plus can do these calculations. This was my
impression, however I have never used E+ to do them. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>Kind regards, </span></p>
<p><span>Alex </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>Alex Krickx, LEED AP </span></p>
<p><span>Building Energy Specialist </span></p>
<p><span>Serious Energy, Inc. </span></p>
<p><span>1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089 </span></p>
<p><span>(t) 408.541.8124 </span></p>
<p><span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com">akrickx@seriousenergy.com</a> </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><i><span>The information contained in this e-mail and any
attachments may be confidential, proprietary and/or
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient then you
have received it in error and any review, distribution or
copying of this message and any attachments is prohibited
and you are to notify the sender immediately by reply
e-mail and delete immediately this message and any
attachments.</span></i><span> </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<div> </div>
<p><span>Energy Plus does PMV and inside surface temperatures as
well...</span> </p>
<p><span><br>
</span> </p>
<p><i><span>Jeremiah D. Crossett</span></i> </p>
<p><i><span>CleanTech Analytics</span></i> </p>
<p><i><span>503-688-8951</span></i> </p>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cleantechanalytics.com"><i><span>www.cleantechanalytics.com</span></i></a>
</p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><b><span>From:</span></b><span> Kathryn Kerns
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:kathryn.kerns@bceengineers.com">mailto:kathryn.kerns@bceengineers.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 12, 2012 8:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alex Krickx<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Can you use eQuest
for PMV calculations? </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span>Alex, ASHRAE sells a Thermal Comfort program which
will do these calculations for you based on temperature,
humidity, air speed, etc. It doesn't cost much and is
easy to use. Check the ASHRAE website for things to
purchase.</span> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div> </div>
<p><b><span>From:</span></b><span> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
on behalf of Alex Krickx<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wed 4/11/2012 3:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jason Quinn; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Can you use eQuest for
PMV calculations?</span> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Hi Jason,</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>I’m under the impression that eQUEST can’t output
surface temperatures which are needed to calculate PMV
values.</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>I think an EnergyPlus based program might be a better
place to look. I would ask on the Bldg-Sim list for
recommendations as it has a broader user-base (this list
is eQUEST specific).</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>Good luck,</span> </p>
<p><span>Alex</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>Alex Krickx, LEED AP</span> </p>
<p><span>Building Energy Specialist</span> </p>
<p><span>Serious Energy, Inc.</span> </p>
<p><span>1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089</span> </p>
<p><span>(t) 408.541.8124</span> </p>
<p><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com">akrickx@seriousenergy.com</a></span>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p><i><span>The information contained in this e-mail and any
attachments may be confidential, proprietary and/or
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient then
you have received it in error and any review,
distribution or copying of this message and any
attachments is prohibited and you are to notify the
sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete
immediately this message and any attachments.</span></i>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p><b><span>From:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Quinn<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Can you use eQuest for
PMV calculations?</span> </p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>Is it possible to use an eQuest model to do thermal comfort
PMV (Predicted Mean Vote) calculations per ASHRAE 55/RP884?
</p>
<p>If not are there any recommendations? </p>
</div>
</div>
<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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