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Thanks all for your considerations, I much appreciate your recommendations.
<div>The nice thing about E-quest is that it support some elements, e.g. skylights, with many different features, while in Energyplus they are usually treated as normal windows.</div>
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<div>Thanks again, Cheers</div>
<div>Stefano</div>
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<div>--
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Stefano Moret<br>
<a href="http://cltc.ucdavis.edu/">California Lighting Technology Center</a><br>
University of California, Davis<br>
633 Pena Drive<br>
Davis, CA 95618<br>
<br>
530-747-3846<br>
<a href="mailto:smoret@ucdavis.edu">smoret@ucdavis.edu</a></div>
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<div>On 09/apr/2012, at 18.28, CleanTech Analytics wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="#336666"><font face="verdana,sans-serif">I had all to similar issues with eQuest, and and realized that eQuest is not really a reliable software. *I know the list is going to hate me.. </font></font><span style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The
thing is that </span>eQuest<span style="color:rgb(51,102,102);font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> is deceptively easy, but when you want to find reliable results you basically have to find some "workaround"... </span>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif">The deal breaker for me in using eQuest for anything more then exploring early design options was:</font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif">I had several real buildings complete with Energy Star portfolio manager data, as well as building audits, when I attempted to use eQuest discovered that eQuest was not capable of coming close to reality,
in fact it wanted me to have something like zero insulation, and very poor U values to even come close. Given Energy Plus is not going to give exact results either but at least it comes close.</font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif">Watch the lists, eQuest is full of "how do I come up with a work around", TRNSYS is mostly "how do I customize" and Energy Plus is mostly "how does this feature work" </font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif">I do not mean to insult eQuest users but my prospective is that it makes more since to use software that is harder to use, has better support and is updated regularly for such professional and high paid
work, rather then the "workaround" </font></div>
<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif">Why eQuest is so popular is because it is easy, but for something like your project I suggest you use Energy Plus. </font></div>
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<div><font color="#336666" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br>
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<div style="text-align:left"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999"><i>Jeremiah D. Crossett</i></font></div>
<div style="text-align:left"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999"><i>CleanTech Analytics</i></font></div>
<div style="text-align:left"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999"><i>503-688-8951</i></font></div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:left"><a href="http://www.cleantechanalytics.com/" target="_blank"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999"><i>www.cleantechanalytics.com</i></font></a></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Stefano Moret <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:smoret@ucdavis.edu">smoret@ucdavis.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Dear Nick,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Thanks for your suggestions, I totally agree with your points, and I’m conscious of the issues about the “generic guidelines”. I’m still surprised by some unexpected results in my models
though: I’ll work on my models to try to understand the reasons leading to results which are different from the measured ones.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Thanks, Stefano<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Nick Caton [mailto:<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 09, 2012 3:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Karen Walkerman; Stefano Moret<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Scale modeling<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">…I see my response is arriving too late to the conversation but here are some further thoughts that might help Stefano and others:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I have some parallel experience from which I can build/add to Karen’s suggestions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I have performed studies with similar structure as Karen is suggesting (creating and adding “building blocks” to evaluate building massing options). However,
for Stefano’s purposes I would caution to carefully take stock of what questions you are trying to answer and whether an energy model is really the way to go about finding those answers.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Using an energy model to develop generic guidelines with “arbitrary” buildings/spaces for something inherently site/climate/building-geometry-specific (such
as “ideal window wall ratio” or “ideal window properties”) is actually a terribly complex endeavor, as I’m sure you are appreciating. You can ultimately come up with a set of guidelines/spreadsheets/principles to use, but applying such developed guidelines
to an actual project for decision-making will always be fraught with accuracy disclaimers (perhaps that is not the ultimate goal – I’m only throwing this out for consideration).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Guidelines built around generic conditions are indeed useful and have their place (ASHRAE’s advanced energy design guides are worth reviewing if you’re at the
outset of trying to find such results), but should only be relied upon in the context of “I don’t want to invest in a site-specific study and the increased accuracy / differing suggestions that may produce.” Evaluating how well any study applies to the project-at-hand
is something to always keep in mind.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">To cut myself off: I think my response drafted so far is falling away from Stefano’s original question as he’s more recently clarifying it, but I’m ultimately
driving towards furthering Karen’s first line: Build project-specific models where you need a project-specific answer.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">To Stefano’s issue of scaling – I am nodding my head vigorously as you’re observing how spaces modeled in isolation do not always additively represent a group
of spaces modeled together. It’s possible for that to happen under certain circumstances, but the variables in play do not normally scale linearly between an isolated space and a whole building (consider the ratio of envelope surface area to conditioned
volume, for one instance). A big part of “big picture” modeling differences when compared to “the smaller parts” is the tempering of various loads across spaces and the way that has energy saving effects on HVAC systems in particular .
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I would not spend too much time deliberating on such (expected) differences, and would emphasize focusing on the results of isolated or “whole building” models
as appropriate to the purpose of your study =).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">~Nick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><img width="119" height="37" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2d4d5e"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2d4d5e"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2d4d5e">NICK CATON, P.E.<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#cc9900">SENIOR ENGINEER<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#cc9900"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2d4d5e">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#cc9900"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2d4d5e">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2d4d5e">olathe, ks 66061<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2d4d5e">direct
<a href="tel:913.344.0036" value="+19133440036" target="_blank">913.344.0036</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2d4d5e">fax
<a href="tel:913.345.0617" value="+19133450617" target="_blank">913.345.0617</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com/" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]" target="_blank">
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 09, 2012 4:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stefano Moret<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Scale modeling<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The short answer is that every building is different, and there is no "typical" model that will fit them all.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As you mentioned, the ratio between lighting/cooling/heating changes depending on the size of the building. I'm willing to guess that this is because the core zones that have very little need for heat get much larger in relation to the
perimeter zones. Also, the building energy needs will change depending on orientation and global location.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would suggest that you take a slightly different approach - try to come up with values that are representative for different types of spaces. You might do say:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. A perimeter office space with XX% glazing (run for North, East, South and West exposures)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. A core office space with no skylights<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">3. A core office space with XX% of roof area as skylights<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">4. A core manufacturing space???<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">5,6,7....<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Run each model in the applicable climate. Then, if you have an office building that is 70% core and 30% perimeter space, you'll have a better understanding of the building. This is still a very rough approximation, but should get you
farther than trying to model one "typical" building.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karen<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Stefano Moret <<a href="mailto:smoret@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">smoret@ucdavis.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I've recently played around quite a bit with E-quest to simulate the effect of dynamic fenestration on building energy consumption.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For these simulations I've been using a very simple office model with a skylight on the top as a test-bed for my calculations (with default system for HVAC and daylighting controls with dimming for lights) but, observing the values I'm
obtaining in output, I see that the values I obtain for lighting, cooling and heating consumption make sense relatively, i.e. if compared to themselves in different conditions, but are sometimes of totally different order of magnitude if compared to each other
(lighting/cooling loads are often much higher than heating, by orders of magnitude), especially when scaling up the model to bigger sizes. This way, it's very difficult to see the effect of a variable change on the total energy consumption.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I know the model I'm using is very idealized, but is there any variable that I can act on in order to obtain a model which has energy consumption values more similar to a real building? For example, is there a "suggested" size of the building
that gives better results? Or maybe simulating a single room in a large building gives more realistic results than the single room alone?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My point is that I would like to have a model whose results in scale might be consistent when applied to bigger buildings.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your hints and suggestions, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Stefano<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Stefano Moret<br>
<a href="http://cltc.ucdavis.edu/" target="_blank">California Lighting Technology Center</a><br>
University of California, Davis<br>
633 Pena Drive<br>
Davis, CA 95618<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="tel:530-747-3846" target="_blank">530-747-3846</a><br>
<a href="mailto:smoret@ad3.ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">smoret@ucdavis.edu</a> <u>
</u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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