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<font size="+1"><tt>One other thought, these curves are for
plenum/plug fans, ie an unhoused wheel. They are not as
efficient as a housed wheel, a DWDI blower. Though lack of
space, sometimes poor casing and duct design on the DWDI blower
can get a plenum fan closer in efficiency. Also the blades are
airfoil which are more efficient than a BI blade.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
</tt></font><br>
On 24/02/2012 03:35 PM, Bishop, Bill wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:90D829482BDEDB4CB264DE5060592B1904801A5F@lightning.pathfinderengineers.com"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks
Nick, RB, Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
was interested in these curves so I could start modeling
static pressure reset, AKA critical zone reset. I just tried
the “Good SP Reset VSD Fan” curve and the savings were
considerable versus the 90.1 Table G3.1.3.15 curve. The Good
SP Reset curve also results in less fan energy than the
“Variable Speed Drive FPLR” eQUEST library curve (discussed
below in earlier correspondence). I did get this message but
I’m choosing to ignore it for now:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">**CAUTION**********************************************************************<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
In curve: Good SP Reset VSD Fan the
dependent value<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
is exceeding the limits.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Normal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
Value/Min/Max/First time: 1.305
0.000 1.000 12/31/24<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Nick Caton [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 12:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill; R B<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals - Appendix G models<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">At
first glance it looks as simple as copy-pasting into a .txt
file in notepad or similar, then renaming the file extension
to .inp… turns out there are a series of formatting issues
that kinda threw a wrench into that line of thought.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here’s
what I patched together some time back after first
encountering that EDR guide. I
<u>haven’t</u> put this into practice yet for an energy
model (though the guide has definitely impacted my design
work), so I’d
<u>heavily</u> advise carefully re-reading the EDR
guideline’s explanations of these curves before putting them
to use. IIRC, some of that appendix looks like DOE2 but is
really just a listing of coefficients for use beyond what’s
actually provided - I used my own initial judgment of what
was “dollar sign” descriptive text in the INP – worth
checking out before using also.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Let
me know how this works out for ya, I’d appreciate if you’d
share any edits you find necessary from this point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">`Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.08040908.03030903@bellnet.ca"
alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119"
height="37"></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK
CATON, P.E.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR
ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith
& Boucher Engineers</span><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe,
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct
913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax
913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 10:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> R B<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals - Appendix G models<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yes,
that is the guide linked to below. I would like a copy of
the fan curves shown in Appendix 5. I was hoping to save
time if someone already has them in an input file or TXT
file, rather than PDF.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
R B [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:slv3sat@gmail.com">mailto:slv3sat@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 11:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Fan energy fundamentals
- Appendix G models<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Was looking at
it the other day - not sure if this is what you are referring
to. The file is EDR_VAV_Guide_5-2-07 (too big to attach). see
page 210 onwards.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Bishop,
Bill <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Would
anyone like to share an input file (or paste the text
into an email) with all the fan curves described in
the EDR resource below? (</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.energydesignresources.com/media/2651/EDR_DesignGuidelines_VAV.pdf"
target="_blank">Advanced Variable Air Volume VAV
System Design Guide</a>)
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
guide references a “New DOE-2 Fan Curves.txt” text
file but I have no idea where/if I can download it.
Yes, I probably could have typed it out myself by now
but this gives me an excuse to post.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
offer the following curve-fit for Appendix G., Table
G3.1.3.15 for any of you that don’t already have it
for your LEED Baseline models. (Just copy and paste
into the “Performance Curves” section of the input
file.):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">"App
G VAV Fan FPLR" = CURVE-FIT
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> TYPE
= CUBIC<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">
INPUT-TYPE = COEFFICIENTS<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">
COEFFICIENTS = ( 0.0013, 0.147, 0.9506, -0.0998 )<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">
..<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin
Gothic
Medium","sans-serif";text-decoration:none">Error!
Filename not specified.</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-color:currentColor currentColor">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Nick Caton [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com"
target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 3:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Riemer; Bishop, Bill; Dahlstrom,
Aaron; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals - Appendix G models<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’ve
also been surprised at the magnitudes involved,
but these kinds of savings do seem very real. One
fundamental I had to wrap my head around
(confirmed with some controls servicing contacts)
is that large supply fans with VSD’s should rarely
operate at or near full capacity when a system is
being controlled correctly.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Small
differences as the curves approach zero really add
up over 8760 hours however. The EDR resource
linked below is really a better teacher than
myself, but if you’ll compare the curves I posted
below, you’ll notice they’re actually very
different at most PLR’s. Actually I can overlay
these pretty quickly with my personal curve
spreadsheet:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">When
looking at these: consider the same system
operating at any given PLR: The difference may
seem small, but at 20% PLR the system with the
library curve is drawing double the energy of the
90.1 curve. Similar story but inversed around the
40% mark. Bill’s model producing a ~50%
difference in fan energy consumption between the
curves is not outside the realm of reason
considering this –his hourly PLR distribution
through the year and minimum flow ratios would
factor in, of course.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
more strongly do not believe these two particular
curves are apples-to-apples however. My present
understanding is the library VSD curve (the “Nike
swoosh”) represents a VSD fan system without
static pressure reset (as prescribed by 90.1).
The other curve shape (umm… “upturned banana?”)
does look like fan system curves incorporating a
static reset sequence, but it’s still weird that
it actually approaches zero at zero (well
technically 0.0013)… .</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This
is something I haven’t reconciled with reality
just yet… One thought is it would appear to
represent a perfectly efficient duct system with
zero static pressure to overcome at low flows –
perhaps that means for a level playing field we’re
supposed to assume the same for a proposed curve?
Is there language in 90.1/users’ manual that
explicitly says something along the lines of
“duct/pipe distribution losses are not supposed to
be modeled?”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Still
mulling this over… =)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Error!
Filename not specified.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Stylus
BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK
CATON, P.E.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR
ENGINEER</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith
& Boucher Engineers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe,
ks 66061</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:913.344.0036" target="_blank">913.344.0036</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:913.345.0617" target="_blank">913.345.0617</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.smithboucher.com"
target="_blank"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-color:currentColor currentColor">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Paul Riemer [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com"
target="_blank">Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Bishop, Bill'; Nick Caton;
Dahlstrom, Aaron; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals - Appendix G models</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
agree it is not trivial but I am really surprised
by that 50.8% number. I think the curves are
relatively similar at the high end and most
systems rarely spend time on the low end where the
curves do differ considerably. Is there a big
difference in the system volumes, specifically are
the baseline fans bigger in volume and thus always
operating at a lower ratio than the proposed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Generally,
I assume that the curve in 90.1 was supposed to
represent a VAV VFD curve and that my VAV VFD fans
should not be penalized against it. VAV vs. CAV
is trickier and brings the temptation to switch
your rationale based on which side your project
falls on.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#5F574F">Paul
Riemer, PE, LEED AP BD+C</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#C00000">DUNHAM</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-color:currentColor currentColor">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Bishop, Bill [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"
target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Paul Riemer; Dahlstrom,
Aaron; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals - Appendix G models</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick’s
concern about VAV fan curves is not trivial. I am
working on a LEED model using Baseline System 5
(PVAV). The Baseline fan energy using the 90.1
G3.1.3.15 VAV FPLR curve is <b>50.8%</b> more
than the fan energy using the default eQUEST
“Variable Speed Drive FPLR” curve. YMMV of course
but that is a big difference. This penalizes the
Baseline for my project – the total electrical use
increases 8.9% in the Baseline vs. only a 4.1%
increase in the Proposed model when switching to
the same G3.1.3.15 curve.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Bill<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 04, 2011 3:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Riemer; Dahlstrom, Aaron; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Paul
& others:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
just wanted to say off the bat: the EDR resource
Paul linked us looks to address the heart of my
query directly (and thank you so much!), but it’s
difficult for me to summarize further right now…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
I think I’ll need to re-read the appropriate parts
of this document a few times over and arrive at a
deeper understanding of actual methods/sequencing
strategies for static pressure reset before I come
to any definite conclusions regarding VAV fan
curve.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
query I’m trying to nail down is what assumptions
and specific system behaviors the DOE2
library/default curves and particularly the
prescribed 90.1-2007 baseline curve represent, and
from there answer what’s fair game insofar as
defining/modifying a different sort of EIR-FPLR
curve for a proposed model. I have the
understanding that the associated fan energy
savings between various approaches are potentially
big and real, but I’m scratching the surface of
how to actually model it to a realistic degree.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">If
anyone has pondered the same topic or is a few
strides ahead of me and wishes to share any
thoughts/guidance, please do not hesitate =).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>NICK
CATON, P.E.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">SENIOR
ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Smith
& Boucher Engineers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">olathe,
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">direct
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:913.344.0036" target="_blank">913.344.0036</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">fax
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:913.345.0617" target="_blank">913.345.0617</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.smithboucher.com"
target="_blank">www.smithboucher.com</a><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Paul Riemer [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com"
target="_blank">Paul.Riemer@dunhameng.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 30, 2011 7:21
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Dahlstrom, Aaron'; Nick Caton; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">As
for fans I suggest two resources:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.energydesignresources.com/media/2651/EDR_DesignGuidelines_VAV.pdf"
target="_blank">Advanced Variable Air Volume VAV
System Design Guide</a> by Energy Design
Resources has some good discussion and suggested
fan curves.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Reid
Hart of PECI did a presentation to BSUG on
September 16, 2009 on fan curves and static
pressure reset. BSUG posted their items,
including this one, to their yahoo group at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/BSUG/files/"
target="_blank">http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/BSUG/files/</a>.
BSUG has morphed into BESF and has a new home at
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://energytrust.org/business/building-energy-simulation/"
target="_blank">
http://energytrust.org/business/building-energy-simulation/</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Paul
Riemer, PE, LEED AP BD+C</b>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>DUNHAM</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dahlstrom, Aaron<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 30, 2011 12:03
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">
Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick
–
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">We’re
in the midst of asking the same questions about
the Pump-Power-fFlow equations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
imagine in both types of flow networks there may
some fixed pressure drops that won’t be reduced:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>1) Min static pressure across flow control
devices (VAV boxes, water control valves)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>2) Static pressure in critical branches
that may not be at reduced flow, even though the
overall flow network is at reduced flow<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>3) In staged plants, static pressure
across individual constant-volume plant
components (eg in our case, chiller 1 of 6
always has 12 psig, regardless of whether it is
the only chiller on or not)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">With
this mixture of fixed and variable pressure
drops, I imagine multiple different
power-versus-flow curves for the same building,
depending on the physical location of the prime
movers and the intervening pinch points /
critical flow networks. 20000 cfm out of a peak
30000 cfm fan probably looks different in terms
of power depending whether the majority is
headed to west zones from an east mechanical
room 400 ft away or headed to east zones just a
few feet away.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Probably
the most accurate method would be explicitly
defining the flow network and calculating these
pressure drops dynamically (if the modeler had
the time to do that explicitly, or software cool
enough (BIM?) to do it automatically). Anyone
familiar enough with Energy Plus to know if
that’s a feature?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
guess no answers here, just more questions …<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Aaron
Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>In
Posse</b> – A subsidiary of
<b>AKF</b>| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414,
Philadelphia, PA 19102 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">d:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:215-282-6753" target="_blank">215-282-6753</a>|
m: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:267-507-5470" target="_blank">
267-507-5470</a>| In Posse: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:215-282-6800" target="_blank">215-282-6800</a>|
AKF:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:215-735-7290" target="_blank">215-735-7290</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">e:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com"
target="_blank">ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a>
| in posse web:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.in-posse.com/"
target="_blank">www.in-posse.com</a> | akf
web:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.akfgroup.com/"
target="_blank">www.akfgroup.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 29, 2011
12:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Fan
energy fundamentals<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Bill
Bishop suggested a good clarification that I
want to take on. I’ve edited my language below
(highlighted) to clarify the question I’m trying
to pose.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]"
target="_blank">
[mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 29, 2011
10:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">Equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Fan energy
fundamentals<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hi
everyone!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">A
recent discussion with a mechanical mentor
brought up a question I’d like to share with the
list… If anyone has a partial or complete
response I think we’d all benefit and appreciate
it if you’d share your thoughts!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">For
a given duct distribution system, you’ve got a
certain static drop. At full flow, your supply
fan also has to deal with a certain velocity
pressure drop due to friction with the duct
distribution. If you reduce the supply airflow
rate, you also lower the velocity and therefore
the velocity pressure drops for the given duct
distribution. The net result is system supply
fan has a lower total pressure drop to overcome,
and so should operate more efficiently.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Does
anyone know: Whether we choose “variable speed”
fan control, use the FAN-EIR-FPLR curve
generated by the wizards, or use the VSD curve
defined in 90.1 appendix G… are we
simultaneously accounting for the efficiency
gains due to lowered velocity pressure drop in
addition to the drop in fan energy from lower
RPMs? If this is not accounted for
inside/outside the fan curves, is there a direct
way to define that or logically work it into the
curves?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">If
it helps anyone answer, I can illustrate from
recent checks that the wizard-generated
FAN-EIR-FPLR curve has a “Nike Swoosh” shape
with an inflection around the 20% mark. This
shape best matches the (limited) data I’ve seen
for “real world” VSD input measurements. Here’s
a screenshot:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
following illustrates the 90.1-2007 VAV curve
we’re made to use for baseline systems 5-8 (I
haven’t checked to see if this still applies to
2010). It does not have the same “inflection
point” as zero is approached. I think it’s
based on the fan law power equation or something
similar that doesn’t account for motor/VSD
losses:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
help files illustrate a different, third shape
for “variable speed” control different from both
of the above…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Seeing
these side-by-side raises another question for
me regarding 90.1-2007 intent/practice… not
specific to eQuest… but I’ve already spent too
much of my time today writing this out! Another
day =)…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks
in advance for anyone joining in the discussion!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Error!
Filename not specified.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>NICK
CATON, P.E.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">SENIOR
ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Smith
& Boucher Engineers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">25501
west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">olathe,
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">direct
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:913.344.0036" target="_blank">913.344.0036</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">fax
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:913.345.0617" target="_blank">913.345.0617</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.smithboucher.com"
target="_blank">www.smithboucher.com</a><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br
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