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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Michael,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You should also take a look at your zone exhaust fan inputs. Since OSA will be forced on to balance any exhaust flow out, this could be related to your system operation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>David, with regard to the your below advice on MIN-AIR-SCH, I typically use the value of 0.001 as suggested in the eQuest Help file for nighttime hours – this will enable the economizer, but set the %OS requirement very low. In this case the system is allowed to open the OA damper up as needed to maintain the desired discharge temp, but is only required to use a very low percent of OSA. Do you have a reason for using “0” rather than “0.001”?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The zone exhaust fans still run during any night cycle hours – which I think forces the OSA up to match that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kind Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#28AAE1'>Molly Curtz</span></b><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#28AAE1'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'>Mechanical Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-indent:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#595959'>Arup<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'>403 Columbia Street Suite 220 Seattle WA 98104<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'>t</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'> +1 206 749 9674 <b>d</b> +1 206 493 2234 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'>f</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'> +1 206 749 0665 <b><o:p></o:p></b></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'>www.arup.com<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Reddy<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 01, 2012 4:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Fan Cycling Indication in Detailed Report?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Michael-<br><br>For zonal systems, I'd suggest reviewing the ZONE heating and cooling SS-P reports as another way to see what is going on. I just reviewed these reports for a current project, and found that I get nearly the same results for both DOE-2 system types HP and PTAC using these two fan control options:<o:p></o:p></p><ol start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>No outside air specified at SYSTEM or ZONE level, FAN-SCHEDULE set to all 1's, and FAN-CONTROL = CYCLING<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>No outside air specified at SYSTEM or ZONE level, and as Robby suggested, FAN-SCHEDULE set to all 0's and NIGHT-CYCLE-CONTROL = CYCLE-ON-ANY<o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal>Attached is an xlsx summary for one zone using one of these scenarios. As you can see, the system fans are not running 8760. The report indicates 6010 run hrs. However, as indicated part-load hour summary, the there are many values lower in the range, indicating the system is only cycling on for a fraction of the hour. The total annual effective full load hours is only 1166.<br><br>A couple things to try:<o:p></o:p></p><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>What DOE-2 system type are you using? A zonal system, such as HP or PTAC? If you are using a single-zone system, such as PSZ or PVVT, then FAN-CONTROL = CYCLING has no impact. If you only want the system to cycle on to meet loads, you have to set INDOOR-FAN-MODE = INTERMITTENT (CONSTANT is the DOE-2 default).<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>Do you specify outdoor air at the SYSTEM or ZONE level? If you truly want no OA supplied by the system, I would default all OA related keywords to "no_default"; a zero value may still be recognized by the program as a value and hence, cause the system to run 24/7. <o:p></o:p></li></ul><p>Also, related to the night-cycle control option, remember to define a MIN-AIR-SCH with 0's during unoccupied hours. Otherwise, when the system cycles on at night to meet the setback temp, the OA dampers will remain open. This is a bit of a tradeoff, since it also disables the economizer. But for heating dominated climates, where cycling is most often to meet heating load, this is typically the best way to go. Otherwise, if you are comparing two designs (i.e. proposed and LEED basline), the design with better envelope performance is more likely to not have as many night cycle hours, and hence, use less energy heating (or possibly cooling) ventilation air. This oversight can have a huge impact on savings comparisons...<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hope this helps,<br>- David<br><br><br>On 2/1/2012 11:35 AM, Michael Mantai wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I tried this but it had no effect. My annual kWh equals my total fan power times 8760, so I’m certain that the fans are on continuously. There must be something that is keeping them on, but I cannot find it.<br><br><br>On 2/1/12 1:52 PM, "Robby Oylear" <<a href="robbyoylear@gmail.com">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Michael,<br><br>On a recent project I modeled this same situation. The way I was able to force the system to only operate during a call for cooling or heating was by defining a fan schedule with all hours set to 0. Per the DOE2.2 help documentation on fan schedules:<br>- </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>If the value is 0, the fans are off but may be turned on by NIGHT-CYCLE-CTRL if zone temperatures warrant it. <br><br>Make sure to allow night cycle control (cycle on any). This basically defines all hours of the day to be "night" and the fan will cycle on to meet the load in the space. <br><br>Robby Oylear, </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>LEED AP<br></span><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Mechanical Project Engineer<br>Senior Energy Analyst<br> <br></span></i><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>D</span></b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>206-788-4571<br></span><b><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="http://www.rushingco.com">www.rushingco.com</a></span></i></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <<a href="http://www.rushingco.com/">http://www.rushingco.com/</a>> <br><br>On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Chris Hadlock <<a href="cjhadlock@gmail.com">cjhadlock@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi Michael,<br><br>I would just run an hourly report for one of your heat pump systems and pick up hourly flow rate and fan energy. This way you can see how often your fans are running and whether they are cycling or running continuously. With heat pump systems, there are key words under the Fans tab (for a given system) that will indicate the control on the fans. One is night cycle control and the other is indoor fan mode (within the Flow Parameters tab). If your fans are not cycling, it is likely due to those two key words (or the fan schedule you have specified).<br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#888888'><br>Chris<br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br><br>On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Michael Mantai <<a href="mmantai@systemworcx.com">mmantai@systemworcx.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I'm modeling a 6-story hotel. Baseline is PTAC. I set up the baseline to<br>have outside air at each PTAC with the fans running continuously. The<br>Proposed Case is watersource heat pumps. Outside air is through dedicated<br>units at the corridors. I've set (at least I am trying to set) the heat<br>pump fans to cycle on the thermostat. I've set the heat pumps to 0 CFM<br>outside air. When I run the two models, the ventilation fan energy is<br>nearly identical. I expected to see some fan energy savings with the heat<br>pump fans cycling. When I look at the detailed output report, the SS-C for<br>the heat pumps seems like it is showing fans running continuously. I say<br>this because the "hours floating" are less than the "hours fans on", and the<br>"hours fans cycle on" is zero. This implies to me that the fans are running<br>continuously. However, when I look at the reports that show fan energy<br>consumption, the months with floating hours show significantly reduced fan<br>energy, which to me implies that they are cycling. The total fan kW in the<br>proposed model is about twice that of the baseline, so from that standpoint<br>maybe the kWh being about the same is correct. I set up the PTAC units at<br>.3 watts/CFM per ASHRAE. I set up the heat pumps fans with a static<br>pressure input from the design drawings rather than input the fan motor<br>sizes (used .2" w.g. Static).<br><br>Also, my space cooling energy is higher in the proposed case than the<br>baseline, even though the envelope is better, the watersource heat pumps<br>have a lower EIR and the design lighting power density is 30% lower. I<br>haven't dug into that yet because I'm still trying to verify my fan cycling<br>is working.<br><br>My questions are, can anyone explain how to interpret the SS-C reports in<br>terms of fan cycling, or point me to which report I should look to really<br>verify the fans are cycling? And anyone modeled a similar comparison, and<br>if so, what type of results did you get with respect to cooling energy and<br>fan power consumption? Seems like I should be seeing savings.<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Equest-users mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Equest-users mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre></div><font face="monospace">____________________________________________________________<br>
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