Robby---<br><br>No, I don't model adjacent walls as exposed unless they are exposed...you can detail adiabatic constructions if you want, don't you do this?<br><br>Also--I agree that if there are conditioned spaces in commercial parking garages that are <u>included in the LEED project definition</u>, however if the parking garage is not included for LEED than I have the right to omit it from my model as I see fit (as the professional simulator of course.)<br>
<br>Therefore, we are arguing professional judgements of opinion, where as this initial discussion uncovered that Deepika was referencing a commercial building model Energy Standard, where he should have been referencing a Residential Energy Standard.<br>
<br>So why has this discussion turned so wildly away from the subject at hand? I model my commercial garages correctly when they are required no matter what compliance program I am modeling for (i.e. LEED, Oregon ETO guidelines, Title-24, Savings by Design, etc.)<br>
<br>My point about mechanical cooling is that if James is parking his car in a garage that has windows, doesn't the solar load into the garage space warrant that some amount of mechanical cooling is needed in his parking garage at work. I can't imagine a sealed parking garage with windows not needing any mechanical cooling, otherwise I am sure that it would be like a Sauna when James leaves work at 6:00pm on the hottest day of the summer in the humidity-laden climate of Arlington, VA.<br>
<br>My guess--and it is purely a guess, based on realistic assumptions and whole building science that his commercial/public parking garage at work has some sort of "open air" concept or extremely MASSIVE ventilation fans, to keep the conditions of the parking garage thermally acceptable AND ventilated so as not to "trap" all of the CO from the car exhausts that are entering and leaving the garage throughout the day. If this is the case, or something similar, then it would not make his parking garage a very sustainable or energy efficient building due to the additional energy needed to manage the thermal temperatures inside and the toxic exhaust fumes that are now contained with in a parking garage that has windows.<br>
<br>let's keep this discussion friendly and professional and not get too far off the original topic of discussion where the garage that Deepika was referring too was not a commercial parking garage---it is an attached garage to a private residence, in which he is not modeling for LEED for Commercial buildings and in which the WWR value of 40% does not apply to his project requirements.<br>
<br><br>
Pasha :) <br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Robby Oylear <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
I agree with James. Modeling the garage is necessary to model the associated conditioned spaces within that floor (heated storage rooms, elevator lobbies, occupiable space adjacent to the garage). Obviously the garage is modeled as unconditioned, so I'm not sure what your point about mechanical cooling is.<div>
<br></div><div>When you exclude the parking garage from your model do you model all of the adjacent spaces with exterior walls adjacent? </div><div><br></div><div><font color="#888888">-Robby</font><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:03 AM, Pasha Korber-Gonzalez <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com" target="_blank">pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Do they provide mechanical cooling for your garage at work? or does it have windows with no roof area....I'm sure your garage at work is not considered a "regularly occupied, fully conditioned (i.e. T-stat controlled) space".<br>
<br>Pasha<div><div></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:51 AM, James Hansen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:JHANSEN@ghtltd.com" target="_blank">JHANSEN@ghtltd.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I model garages all the time. I haven't done a building in a while that didn't have some sort of conditioned space in the garages that needed an adjacent unconditioned space (but without exterior walls) to properly analyze. Plus for LEED these days, they want all of your building areas in the model to match those entered by the architect in the PI forms. So you are supposed to model garage elevator lobbies, semi-heated mechanical spaces, main electric rooms, unheated garage space, etc. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Also, my garage at work has windows :)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">-James<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Pasha Korber-Gonzalez [mailto:<a href="mailto:pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com" target="_blank">pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 20, 2011 6:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> deepika khowal<br><b>Cc:</b> James Hansen; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span></p>
<div><div></div><div><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] wwr calculation<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p></div><div><div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
I disagree with both of you.<br><br>First of all, who models Garages in their models anyway? What a waste of time.---this scews the gross floor area, and nothing in a parking garage impacts the HVAC equipment loads of the conditioned spaces....you can always input your garage vent fans and lighting as single exterior load input numbers in your model which simplifies the whole modeling project and billable time spent WITHOUT compromising on the calculations of energy use....<br>
<br>Second of all---poor example for offering windows in a parking garage--this is never real life, and a non-applicable example doesn't "hold water". At least give an example that is comparable to real life situations... Parking garages are either open air, or underground (without fenestration...) Have you ever had a project where Mechanical cooling needed to be provided to a parking garage? I hope not because these are considered transient space types.<br>
<br>If you are modeling your LEED buildings according to appendix G --90.1 you do not include the above grade garage wall area in your gross building WWR calculation.<br><br>FOURTH---Deepika---you are modeling a residential home from your picture you sent us. YOU CANNOT USE ASHRAE STANDARD 90.1 TO MODEL LOW-RISE RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS!<br>
<br>You are using and interpreting the wrong standard, you need to use ASHRAE Standard 90.2 for Non-commerical Residential buildings. You will need to use this new reference as everything you are referring to does not apply for your project or your project model.<br>
<br>The real answer to your question is the Nebraska Cornhusker football team IS BETTER than the Virgina Tech Hoakies! GO BIG RED!!!!<br>Pasha<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:15 PM, deepika khowal <<a href="mailto:deepika.khowal@gmail.com" target="_blank">deepika.khowal@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with James .<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">if its unconditioned space, we should not claim the window area . that way we can have higher WWR for rest of conditioned spaces.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 1:56 PM, James Hansen <<a href="mailto:JHANSEN@ghtltd.com" target="_blank">JHANSEN@ghtltd.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I don't think I agree with this advice</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Under ASHRAE 90.1-2007, Section 5.2.1, part of the requirements for the PRESCRIPTIVE method requires that "the vertical fenestration area does not exceed 40% of the gross wall area for each <b><i>space-conditioning category</i></b>". </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The definition for "space conditioning category" simply says:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> non-residential conditioned space,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> residential conditioned space, and</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> nonresidential and residential semiheated space</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">It doesn't list unconditioned space. Now I know this info is listed in the prescriptive requirements, but if it was my model, and I had a garage that had 100% window area, there is no way I would count that towards the gross WWR, particularly if I was applying for LEED, and these inconsequential windows pushed my WWR above 40% and thus penalized my proposed building. In fact, I might not even model the windows, unless I felt they were going to superheat the garage and start impacting adjacent space cooling loads.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Just my opinion...</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:teal">GHT Limited<br></span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">James Hansen, P.E., LEED AP</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
Senior Associate<br>1010 N. Glebe Road, Suite 200<br>Arlington, VA 22201-4749<br><a href="tel:703-243-1200" value="+17032431200" target="_blank">703-243-1200</a> (office)</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:703-338-5754" value="+17033385754" target="_blank">703-338-5754</a> (cell)<br>
<a href="tel:703-276-1376" value="+17032761376" target="_blank">703-276-1376</a> (fax)</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.ghtltd.com/" title="http://www.ghtltd.com/" target="_blank">www.ghtltd.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>PKConsulting<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:04 PM<br><b>To:</b> deepika khowal<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] wwr calculation</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">It doesn't change for unconditioned or conditioned. It is only a function of gross wall area (ft2) and window area (ft2). Don't think too hard about this. You are looking for a needle in the wrong haystack. This one is straight forward with no tricks...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">WWR is for whole bldg not space by space.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Pashalu<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<br>On Oct 19, 2011, at 12:20 PM, deepika khowal <<a href="mailto:deepika.khowal@gmail.com" target="_blank">deepika.khowal@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Pasha<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">yes , i have been using LV-d report.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Am confused how it work for an unconditioned space.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:01 AM, PKConsulting <<a href="mailto:pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com" target="_blank">pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It should be the gross wall area for everything above ground. Use the lv-d report to find the numbers to calculate the overall WWR for your entire bldg. There is a summary page at the end of the lv-d report. Look for the line called-'all walls'. You can use those numbers to calc WWR percentage.<br>
<br>Pashalu<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>On Oct 19, 2011, at 11:39 AM, deepika khowal <<a href="mailto:deepika.khowal@gmail.com" target="_blank">deepika.khowal@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>> Hi all<br>
><br>> I have a question about calculating WWR.<br>> for example, if the south wall area is 700sf and total window area is 70sf then the WWR should be 10%.<br>> but if 50% of south wall is part of a garage and is unconditioned, then in calculating WWR , should I include only the wall area for conditioned space or it should include complete facade?<br>
> Thanks<br>><br>> Deepika<br>><br>><br>><br>><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">> <image.png><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Equest-users mailing list<br>
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