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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hey everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Sorry to chime in late… but I have some input to wedge into the conversation as it’s wrapping up:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>First: As has already been said, LS-F is inclusive of all ‘<i>conditioned</i>’ spaces. I didn’t realize the DOE2 entries explicitly (more or less) say that, and had figured it out for myself via logic/gray hair growth… =) I’ll take this as a reminder that the DOE2 help files are perpetually more useful than they may seem!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Second: I’m also no developer, but Bruce’s conclusions didn’t sit well with me so I did a quick study to confirm… I don’t think you can characterize plenum loads as being *entirely* separated from the conditioned spaces... Do such loads (really hot/cold plenums) get directed straight back to the central air handler, or do they also partially interact with the zones as well? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I know ceilings generated by eQuest wizards by default are not adiabatic, but do use a construction with defined heat transmittance properties.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I slapped together a 1-zone, 1-floor dummy model and tried changing the default ceiling construction (U~0.5) to adiabatic in a parametric run. Return air path was set to “plenum zones.” The plenum zone itself was changed from “unconditioned” to “plenum:” <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><img width=980 height=560 id="Picture_x0020_11" src="cid:image003.png@01CC6E2B.031B6D80"></span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Lo and behold: The two runs do indeed have differing cooling/heating/ventilation consumptions (attached)!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>Investigation of the LS-F reports shows the whole building deals with identical load components altogether – which is expected. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>Comparing of the LS-E reports reveals the plenum with an adiabatic ceiling has less heating and less cooling to deal with over the year. Both runs’ conditioned space however deal with identical loads for each month.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Conclusions! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>Bruce is NOT to be questioned: Plenums modeled as a return air path do not transmit their loads to the corresponding spaces below. They carry their loads directly to the parent system.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>Return air plenums DO however receive heating/cooling loads transmitted from the conditioned spaces below via the ceiling surfaces. It’s basically a 1-way street.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>I’d agree real-world behavior is somewhere in-between: Return-air plenum ceilings should act as a 2-way street thermally, and a single plenum can be hot on one side but cold on another at any given instance. In many cases however, I suspect the assumption of all loads staying in the plenum is closer to reality than assuming they all dump into the corresponding space below, from an supply airflow-sizing perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CC6E29.ED5AD810" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></u><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce Easterbrook<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jeremy Poling<br><b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org; Jonathan Smith<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Roof vs Exterior Wall Load<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt'>Thanks Jeremy,<br>I went back and reviewed my spaces and removed the plenums from my tally. The LS-E and the LS-F now agree. The information in the reports summary also had zeros for the roof components but a note indicated that only 6 of the reports were shown and these were from the ground floor of a 3 story building, so spaces with roof components weren't shown. So the plenums are not included in the reports. The bigger question now is is the plenum load properly accounted for in the eQuest simulation. I believe you are correct on the way eQuest accounts for the heat gains/losses. This lumps all the various zone plenums onto the AHU system as one value. In the cobwebs I think this is why I don't use this report. I prefer to keep all the loads in the zone and so I add in the plenums. This way later when I'm changing my zoning I don't forget what can many times be a significant load on the AHU. It also makes checking easier. In reality with firewalls, ducted returns, this is not the way an actual system deals with the plenum loads. The heat or cold can actually penetrate the room space and possibly throw off the ability of the supply air flow to deal with this extra load. So definitely a caution to think about when fine tuning a building system in the model and when actually designing the HVAC system. The load is accounted for but maybe not in the way you expected and can easily be forgotten about as we just proved! lol.<br>Bruce<br></span><br>On 08/09/2011 11:49 AM, Jeremy Poling wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>For what it’s worth, the example LS-F report in the help file documentation also shows only 0’s in the roof component. From within eQuest, go to the Help menu, select DOE-2 Help. Expand the “Volume 4: Libraries & Reports” and then the “Reports” topics. LS-E and LS-F are under the loads reports. The text says the monthly space components are summed across spaces. The definition of the LS-F report excludes plenum spaces:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>This report gives a breakdown of loads on a monthly basis for the entire building, according to the source of the load. The loads in unconditioned spaces (ZONE-TYPE = UNCONDITIONED or PLENUM) are not included; all entries are in millions of Btu/month.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>This just explains why they don’t show up in the LS-F…I believe that the mechanism used by eQuest to account for heat gain in the plenums is to apply that heat gain to the return air before the system, thereby increasing temperature, humidity, etc. in the RA stream due to the loads in the plenum spaces connected to a given system. Someone from Hirsch can jump in if I got that wrong.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I’m curious if anyone else has dug deeper on this than I have, though?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</span></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce Easterbrook<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:09 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jonathan Smith<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Roof vs Exterior Wall Load</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> To tell the truth I haven't a clue. You would think the sums would agree. I did open one of my sim's and summed the roof components for all my zones from the LS-E report and found the sum didn't match the figure in the LS-F report, it was much higher. I rarely use these reports and hadn't noticed this before. eQuest does treat roofs as horizontal walls but on my sim I know I didn't do any modifications which might have mixed things up. I took a look at the "Detailed Simulation Reports Summary" and there was nothing which stood out as an explanation. So the quickest thing to do is pass this back to the group to see if we can find an answer.<br>Bruce<br><br>On 08/09/2011 09:33 AM, Jonathan Smith wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hi Bruce:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks you for your reply. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The LS-F report I’m reviewing is a building wide report which should be inclusive of all spaces. As stated previously, MBTUs through ROOF components is listed as zero. However, the space level report (LS-E) for the one of the plenums with a roof component shows heat loss of the roof component. This is true for some of the other plenum spaces. Any ideas why the space level report (LS-E) ROOF components are not reported on the building wide report (LS-F) as roof components?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Jonathan</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Bruce Easterbrook [<a href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 07, 2011 9:08 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jonathan Smith<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Roof vs Exterior Wall Load</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt'>In the room space the roof is actually the ceiling. Because the room and plenum spaces are close or the same temperature there is minimal or no heat loss between them. You need to go to the plenum space for the heat loss through the exterior roof. If you want the heat loss for the full floor to floor space you have to add the room and plenum losses. The plenum will have some wall surfaces as well.<br>Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>Abode Engineering<br></span><br>On 06/09/2011 01:46 PM, Jonathan Smith wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>RE: Detailed Report, LS-F Building Monthly Load Components <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Why would roof heat losses be zero in a model defined with plenum spaces that have roofs components? In report LS-F, there are no losses reported in ‘Roof’ and ‘Wall’ heat losses seem exceptionally high, as if ‘Roof’ losses are reported in ‘Walls’. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>All spaces were created using the eQuest wizard mode. Inspecting the “exterior surface properties”, the word “Roof” appears below the surface name. All roof constructions are made with layers input, having a U-Value 0f 0.043. When creating exterior surfaces in detailed edit mode, no option exists for defining an exterior surface as a roof or wall. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>So, how are the loads associated with roofs reporting in LS-F? What other reasons might roof loads not report, or at least not report in the correct load component?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Jonathan R. 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