<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<font size="+1">Thanks Jeremy,<br>
I went back and reviewed my spaces and removed the plenums from my
tally. The LS-E and the LS-F now agree. The information in the
reports summary also had zeros for the roof components but a note
indicated that only 6 of the reports were shown and these were
from the ground floor of a 3 story building, so spaces with roof
components weren't shown. So the plenums are not included in the
reports. The bigger question now is is the plenum load properly
accounted for in the eQuest simulation. I believe you are correct
on the way eQuest accounts for the heat gains/losses. This lumps
all the various zone plenums onto the AHU system as one value. In
the cobwebs I think this is why I don't use this report. I prefer
to keep all the loads in the zone and so I add in the plenums.
This way later when I'm changing my zoning I don't forget what can
many times be a significant load on the AHU. It also makes
checking easier. In reality with firewalls, ducted returns, this
is not the way an actual system deals with the plenum loads. The
heat or cold can actually penetrate the room space and possibly
throw off the ability of the supply air flow to deal with this
extra load. So definitely a caution to think about when fine
tuning a building system in the model and when actually designing
the HVAC system. The load is accounted for but maybe not in the
way you expected and can easily be forgotten about as we just
proved! lol.<br>
Bruce<br>
</font><br>
On 08/09/2011 11:49 AM, Jeremy Poling wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:FAFEA6DD2FFC2140A17D9A8E19187DE307F316BA@EXCH-01.transwestern.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered
medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]-->
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Times New Roman \, serif";}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black;}
p.MsoBodyText, li.MsoBodyText, div.MsoBodyText
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Body Text Char";
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:windowtext;}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle23
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.BodyTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Body Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Body Text";}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">For what it’s
worth, the example LS-F report in the help file
documentation also shows only 0’s in the roof component.
From within eQuest, go to the Help menu, select DOE-2 Help.
Expand the “Volume 4: Libraries & Reports” and then the
“Reports” topics. LS-E and LS-F are under the loads
reports. The text says the monthly space components are
summed across spaces. The definition of the LS-F report
excludes plenum spaces:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:windowtext">This report
gives a breakdown of loads on a monthly basis for the entire
building, according to the source of the load. The loads in
unconditioned spaces (ZONE-TYPE = UNCONDITIONED or PLENUM)
are not included; all entries are in millions of Btu/month.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">This just
explains why they don’t show up in the LS-F…I believe that
the mechanism used by eQuest to account for heat gain in the
plenums is to apply that heat gain to the return air before
the system, thereby increasing temperature, humidity, etc.
in the RA stream due to the loads in the plenum spaces
connected to a given system. Someone from Hirsch can jump
in if I got that wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’m curious if
anyone else has dug deeper on this than I have, though?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Jeremy
R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</span></b><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Bruce Easterbrook<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Smith<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Roof vs Exterior Wall
Load<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> To tell the truth I haven't a clue.
You would think the sums would agree. I did open one of my
sim's and summed the roof components for all my zones from the
LS-E report and found the sum didn't match the figure in the
LS-F report, it was much higher. I rarely use these reports
and hadn't noticed this before. eQuest does treat roofs as
horizontal walls but on my sim I know I didn't do any
modifications which might have mixed things up. I took a look
at the "Detailed Simulation Reports Summary" and there was
nothing which stood out as an explanation. So the quickest
thing to do is pass this back to the group to see if we can
find an answer.<br>
Bruce<br>
<br>
On 08/09/2011 09:33 AM, Jonathan Smith wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi Bruce:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks you for
your reply. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The LS-F report
I’m reviewing is a building wide report which should be
inclusive of all spaces. As stated previously, MBTUs through
ROOF components is listed as zero. However, the space level
report (LS-E) for the one of the plenums with a roof
component shows heat loss of the roof component. This is
true for some of the other plenum spaces. Any ideas why the
space level report (LS-E) ROOF components are not reported
on the building wide report (LS-F) as roof components?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Jonathan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Bruce Easterbrook [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 07, 2011 9:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jonathan Smith<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Roof vs Exterior Wall
Load</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">In the room
space the roof is actually the ceiling. Because the room
and plenum spaces are close or the same temperature there is
minimal or no heat loss between them. You need to go to the
plenum space for the heat loss through the exterior roof.
If you want the heat loss for the full floor to floor space
you have to add the room and plenum losses. The plenum will
have some wall surfaces as well.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
</span><br>
On 06/09/2011 01:46 PM, Jonathan Smith wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">RE: Detailed Report, LS-F Building Monthly
Load Components <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Why would roof heat losses be zero in a
model defined with plenum spaces that have roofs components?
In report LS-F, there are no losses reported in ‘Roof’ and
‘Wall’ heat losses seem exceptionally high, as if ‘Roof’
losses are reported in ‘Walls’. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All spaces were created using the eQuest
wizard mode. Inspecting the “exterior surface properties”, the
word “Roof” appears below the surface name. All roof
constructions are made with layers input, having a U-Value 0f
0.043. When creating exterior surfaces in detailed edit mode,
no option exists for defining an exterior surface as a roof or
wall. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, how are the loads associated with roofs
reporting in LS-F? What other reasons might roof loads not
report, or at least not report in the correct load component?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Jonathan
R. Smith AIA LEED</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">®</span><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><img
id="_x0000_i1033"
src="cid:part1.03080508.05070203@bellnet.ca"
alt="signature-logo_60%" height="66" border="0"
width="300"></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">40
Beaver Street</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Albany,
New York 12207</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">p:
518.463.8068 x268<br>
f: 518.463.8069 <br>
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.csarchpc.com/"
title="http://www.csarchpc.com/"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">www.csarchpc.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,
serif","serif""><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>