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This is an interesting thread that's related to a topic that has
been going around in ASHRAE TC 4.7 for almost four years, so I'd
like to add my two-cents.<br>
<br>
1. I've always understood that the fenestration requirements in
ASHRAE 90.1 are for the whole assembly, i.e., fenestration + frame.
<br>
2. The NFRC rated values are also for the whole assembly, but those
bulk property values are insufficient for modeling because (a) they
do not indicate the angular properties of the glazing, (b) they do
not distinguish between center-of-glass, edge-of-glass, or frame. <br>
3. If the detailed fenestration description is available, one can
model it in WINDOW-5/6 and produce a WINDOW-5 file (or what the
WINDOW-5 people call the "DOE-2 file"!) and use that in
DOE-2/eQUEST.<br>
4. If the detailed fenestration description is not available, one
can model it using the simple monolithic window model in DOE-2, but
the results may differ substantially from 3, particularly for
complex glazing systems; under no circumstances should comparisons
be done mixing the two methods, i.e., comparing a window modeled
using WINDOW-5/6 and another modeled using the simple window model.<br>
<br>
So, this gets to the topic floating around in ASHRAE TC 4.7 (Energy
Calculations):<br>
<br>
5. Although 3 is the most desirable approach, there are many
instances where it's unfeasible, either because<br>
only the bulk properties have been defined, e.g., for ASHRAE 90.1 or
Title-24, or the detailed fenestration descriptions are not
available, as in an existing building. For those instances, would
it be helpful to have a computer program that would "reverse
engineer" the layer-by-layer description of the fenestration based
on its bulk properties (assembly U-factor, SHGC) and any other
obtainable details, e.g., number of panes, gap thickness, frame
material type, etc. ? A number of us within TC 4.7 have felt
"yes", but I thought I'd canvas people on this thread on what you
think.<br>
<br>
Please send me e-mail if you wish to see the draft Work Statement.<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
(former TC 4.7 Research Subcommittee Chair)
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="90">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
Moraga CA 94556
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com">www.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
</pre>
<br>
On 8/2/2011 11:23 AM, Brad Robinson wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:1312309428.60160.YahooMailNeo@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>
<div><span>There are, it seems, a multitude of ways people on
this forum go about modeling windows. It would be
interesting to know, in terms of a LEED review, what others
have been required to provide in terms of modeling the
windows. Does anyone have experience on the Canadian side of
the border what is required? Thanks.</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Brad Robinson<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div> <b><span>From:</span></b> R B <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slv3sat@gmail.com"><slv3sat@gmail.com></a><br>
<b><span>To:</span></b> eQUEST Users List
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"><equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org></a><br>
<b><span>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 30, 2011 11:29:31
PM<br>
<b><span>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT:
Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>Came across this in eQuest help - basically suggests
to use zero frame width.</div>
<div>-Rohini</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true">Volume 2: Dictionary</a><span>
> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true">Envelope
Components</a><span> > </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true">WINDOW</a><span> > </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true">Window Frames and Skylight
Curbs</a></div>
<h5>FRAME-WIDTH</h5>
<div>Projected width of the frame in the plane of the
glazing (<a moz-do-not-send="true">Figure 27</a>). We
recommend that frames be entered only if the frame area
is more than 10 percent or so of the glazed area, which
is generally only the case in residential applications.
The program assumes that the frame width is the same on
all sides of the window. If this is not the case, use
the average frame width.</div>
<br>
<br>
<div>On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Alex Krickx <span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com">akrickx@seriousenergy.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<div><span>Great thread- </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>To answer Vikram’s question - When
using WINDOW, you are slightly limited in the
output file (for example, if I create an
NFRC-type model to figure out U-value for a
curtainwall system, I will need to simply the
window to export it into a DOE-2 report
format). When you do import a WINDOW Report
for DOE-2 into eQUEST it does not load any
frame information with it – it presents the
COG glass performance. My process is to adjust
the spacer type and frame width+conductance to
make an object that matches what WINDOW tells
me my window performance is. </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>I don’t model for LEED, so am less
familiar with what is required for that –
since I work for a window manufacturer I
usually have access to all the data I need to
determine frame-inclusive u-value and SHGCs,
i.e. no need to rely on 90.1 defaults. </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>Since the conversation was about using
NFRC data – let me ask this question: NFRC
data for windows (curtainwall assemblies
included) is for a “default” size. I believe
for curtainwall a mulled unit is modeled at 2m
x 2m (or 78.54” x 78.54”) – as shown below: </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span><img moz-do-not-send="true"></span><span>
</span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>This is an example, but let’s say that
the NFRC value is U-0.34. If your building has
a smaller or larger window (which will change
the glass-to-frame ratio) the U-value will be
different. </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>Is it still appropriate to use the NFRC
value in that case, where it is entered as a
frame-inclusive U-factor and SHGC? I’m curious
as to how others approach this issue when
dealing with models for compliance. </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>Kind regards, </span></div>
<div>
<span>Alex Krickx </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>Alex Krickx, LEED AP </span></div>
<div><span>Building Energy Specialist </span></div>
<div><span>Serious Energy, Inc. </span></div>
<div><span>1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089 </span></div>
<div><span>(t) <a moz-do-not-send="true">408.541.8124</a>
</span></div>
<div><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com">akrickx@seriousenergy.com</a>
</span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><i><span>The information contained in this
e-mail and any attachments may be
confidential, proprietary and/or privileged.
If you are not the intended recipient then
you have received it in error and any
review, distribution or copying of this
message and any attachments is prohibited
and you are to notify the sender immediately
by reply e-mail and delete immediately this
message and any attachments.</span></i><span>
</span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div>
<span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div><b><span>From:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sami, Vikram<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29, 2011 1:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robby Oylear; Bill Talbert;
Carol Gardner</span></div>
<div>
<div><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT:
Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s
Glass only </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<span>Firstly – congratulations to all
contributors – I think this is probably
the first time (that I recall) that all of
the posts on this list have been on a
single thread. I couldn’t resist being a
part of this so I’m going to add my 2
cents: </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>90.1 baseline values & SHGC are
assembly u-values so your frame needs to
be calculated into this. To get the
derated value – you could either use the
handy little XL spreadsheet that comes
with the install of eQUEST (under the
data\window folder) called eQUEST-DOE2
Glass Library.xls. This gives you COG
values <b> AND </b> glass+frame NFRC
values. They have separate table where it
is sorted by U-value and SHGC – I use it
all the time (screenshot below). </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div>
<img moz-do-not-send="true"><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div>
<span>So you can select your values in
conjunction with the values below from the
DOE2 help file to get what you need. </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div><b><br>
Frame Type</b> </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div><b>FRAME-CONDUCT (excludes OA
film)</b> </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div><b><br>
U-value<sup>a</sup></b> </div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div>Thermally unbroken aluminum </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>3.037 (17.24) </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>
1.90 (10.79) </div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div>
Thermally broken aluminum </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>1.245 (7.07) </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>1.00 (5.68) </div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div>External flush glazed aluminum
</div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>0.812 (4.61) </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>
0.70 (3.97) </div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div>
Wood with or without cladding </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>0.434 (2.46) </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>
0.40 (2.27) </div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div>Vinyl </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>0.319 (1.81) </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div>0.30 (1.70) </div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="3" valign="top">
<div><sup>a</sup> U-value includes
OA film at 15 mph [6.7 m/s]
windspeed<br>
FRAME-CONDUCT = [(U-value)<sup>-1</sup>
- 0.197]<sup>-1</sup> Btu/ft2-F-h<br>
FRAME-CONDUCT = [(U-value)<sup>-1</sup>
- 0.035]<sup>-1</sup> W/m2-K </div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><b><span> </span></b></div>
<div><span>Alternately, you can select a COG
value to match what you want, set your
frame to zero and your spacer to
UE-EQ-UC (this will give you a uniform COG
conductance across the assembly). </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>I am curious about LBNL window
imports. When you set up your assembly in
window – it includes frames, but you
import it in as a glass type – should you
zero out the frame (as in the second case)
if you import from window? </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><b><span> </span></b></div>
<div>
<b><span>Vikram Sami</span></b><span>, LEED
AP BD+C </span></div>
<div><span>Sustainable Design Analyst </span></div>
<div><span>1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA
30309 </span></div>
<div><span>t: <a moz-do-not-send="true">404-443-7462</a>
f: </span><span lang="ES"><a
moz-do-not-send="true">404.892.5823</a> </span><span>
e: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vikram.sami@perkinswill.com">vikram.sami@perkinswill.com</a>
</span><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.perkinswill.com/"><span>www.perkinswill.com</span></a></span><span>
</span></div>
<div><b><span>Perkins+Will.</span></b><span>
</span><span>Ideas + buildings that honor
the broader goals of society</span><span>
</span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div>
<div><b><span>From:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robby Oylear<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29, 2011 4:18
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bill Talbert; Carol Gardner<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users]
URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
assembly v/s Glass only </span></div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>From the 90.1 User's Manual pg 5-12: </div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>"With Addendum 90.1ag (published </div>
<div>
<div>with Standard 90.1-2001) glazed wall
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>systems, including glass curtain
walls used </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>on large buildings, storefront
glazing </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>systems, and other similar products
that </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>are assembled at the construction
site, as </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>opposed to at the factory, must
either be </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>rated using NFRC procedures or the </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>default U-factor, SHGC and VLT from
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Table A8.2. Since the performance
values </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>in Table A8.1A are based on uncoated
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>clear glass in poorly performing
metal </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>frame, they do not offer any credit
for </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>low-e coatings, thermal break frames
or </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>any other advanced feature. In
general, </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>values from Table A8.1A will not
achieve </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>compliance with the fenestration </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>requirements. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>The NFRC procedure for site-built
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>fenestration is described in NFRC
100. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>The NFRC ratings are based on
computer </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>simulations of various product
options at </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>standard sizes. (For curtain walls,
the </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>standard size specified is 2000 mm
by </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>2000 mm, or approximately 79 in. by
79 </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>in.) Multiple glass options can be
included </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>in one simulation matrix. The
entire </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>simulation matrix is then validated
by a </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>single physical test at the
standard size. If </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>the matrix for a product has
previously </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>been validated, then a new glass
option </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>can be added to the matrix by
simulation </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>alone. Simulations and tests must
be done </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>by an NFRC-accredited simulation
and </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>test laboratories." </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Also, the LEED Reference Guide for
Green Building Design and Construction,
pg 275 specifically references Tables
A8.1 and A8.2 or requires that the
products be certified and labeled in
accordance with NFRC. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Not seeing any statements that would
allow the modeler to perform their own
fenestration assembly performance
calculations. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>-Robby </div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Bill
Talbert <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:btalbert@aeieng.com">btalbert@aeieng.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span>Regarding Omar’s first
question, I would also clarify
that adding a frame to the
baseline is probably not the
correct approach unless you are
adjusting the U-value to a center
of glass value and accounting for
the frame and edge effects such
that the total fenestration
performance is equal to the 90.1
prescribed value.</span> </div>
<div><span> </span> </div>
<div><span>‘They are silent about
frames but I would use one, match
the frame width of your proposed
window. Use an Aluminum frame with
no thermal break.’</span> </div>
<div><span> </span> </div>
<div><span>Baseline Table 5.5-1
through 5.5-8 specify
‘fenestration assembly’ values
which include the effect of the
frames and edge of glass. Modeling
a frame in the Baseline will
further degrade the overall
fenestration U-value (unless your
frame outperforms the glazing) and
result in overestimating the
savings relative to the
fenestration performance. If you
use the Table values for your
window performance, frames
shouldn’t be included. If you
include a frame, you should create
a 90.1 compliant product using
WINDOW and use the appropriate
frame and glazing performance
values as eQuest inputs such that
your overall frame and glazing
performance matches the A90.1
Table value.</span> </div>
<div><span>Regards,</span> </div>
<div><span>Bill</span> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<span> </span> </div>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">
<div><b><span>Bill Talbert</span></b><b><span>
</span></b><span>PE, LEED®
AP<br>
</span><span>Sustainable</span>
</div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div><span> </span> </div>
</td>
<td valign="top">
<div><b><span>AEI</span></b><span>
| AFFILIATED ENGINEERS,
INC. <br>
5802 Research Park
Boulevard | Madison, WI
53719<br>
<br>
</span><span>P: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">608.441.6677</a>
| C: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">608.234.3803</a>
| F: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">608.238.2614</a></span><span> <br>
</span><span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:btalbert@aeieng.com"><span>btalbert@aeieng.com</span></a>
| <b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.aeieng.com/"><span>www.aeieng.com</span></a></b></span><span>
</span> </div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div><span> </span> </div>
<div><span> </span> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><span> </span> </div>
<div><span> </span> </div>
<div>
<div><b><span>From:</span></b><span>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol
Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29,
2011 1:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robby Oylear</span> </div>
<div>
<div><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Equest-users] URGENT: Window
U-values: Total window
assembly v/s Glass only </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
This came off of the Window
website: </div>
<div>WINDOW 6.3 is a publicly
available computer program for
calculating total window thermal
performance indices (i.e.
U-values, solar heat gain
coefficients, shading
coefficients, and visible
transmittances). WINDOW 6.3
provides a versatile heat
transfer analysis method
consistent with the updated
rating procedure developed by
the National Fenestration Rating
Council (NFRC) that is
consistent with the ISO 15099
standard. The program can be
used to design and develop new
products, to assist educators in
teaching heat transfer through
windows, and to help public
officials in developing building
energy codes. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at
11:26 AM, Robby Oylear <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
<div>
<div>Carol, </div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>I have to take exception
to this: </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>"As far as NFRC, your
Solarban glass data is NFRC
rated which should be good
enough, I think. It's rare
in commercial buildings to
have a rating for the entire
window." </div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>From my first response:
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span>In order to meet
LEED EAp2 Minimum Energy
Performance, the project
must comply with all
mandatory provisions of
ASHRAE 90.1-2007.
Section 5.4.2
Fenestration and Doors
requires that
fenestration performance
be determined per
section 5.8.2. Section
5.8.2.4 U-factor
requires that the
U-factor for the overall
fenestration area
(including framing) be
determined in accordance
with NFRC 100. If you do
not have NFRC data
available, values from
section A8.2 are the
only acceptable
alternative.</span> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>NFRC values for the
glazing alone not "good
enough". This is exactly
what the reviewer is trying
to get at. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>I'd hardly call NFRC
certification rare. In the
State of Washington NFRC
certification has been
required for all glazing
assemblies for over 10
years. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>How do you justify
certifying that your
projects have met the
mandatory provisions of
ASHRAE 90.1 without NFRC
data? </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="13177c071350ddb0_1317746f9272af25_13177255b63123b2__MailA"><b><span>Robby
Oylear, LEED</span></b></a><b><sup><span>®</span></sup></b><b><span>
AP BD+C</span></b> </div>
<div><i><span>Mechanical
Project Engineer</span></i>
</div>
<div><i><span>Energy
Analyst</span></i> </div>
<div><i><span> </span></i>
</div>
<div><b><span>D</span></b><span>
</span><span><a
moz-do-not-send="true">206-788-4571</a>
|</span><span> </span><b><span>C</span></b><span>
</span><span><a
moz-do-not-send="true">206-354-2721</a></span>
</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><b><i><span>www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Fri, Jul 29,
2011 at 11:12 AM,
Carol Gardner <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com">cmg750@gmail.com</a>> wrote: </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Thu, Jul 28,
2011 at 5:40 AM,
Omar Katanani <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>>
wrote: </div>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Dear
all,</span> </div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Thank
you for your
responses.</span>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<ol start="1"
type="1">
<li><span
lang="EN-GB">Are
the NFRC
testing and
the values in
table A8.2
used for the
Baseline,
Proposed, or
both
scenarios?</span><span
lang="EN-GB">
</span> </li>
</ol>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>For the
baseline windows,
Appendix G gives
the following
instructions:<br>
Fenestration<br>
U-factors shall
match the
appropriate
requirements in
Tables 5.5-1
through<br>
5.5-8.
Fenestration SHGC
shall match the
appropriate
requirements in
Tables<br>
5.5-1 through
5.5-8. <br>
They are silent
about frames but I
would use one,
match the frame
width of your
proposed window.
Use an Aluminum
frame with no
thermal break. </div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<ol start="2"
type="1">
<li><span
lang="EN-GB">Let’s
say I do not
have NFRC test
results and
decide to use
the values in
table A8.2.
For a clear
double glazed
and metal
frame type, I
get an
assembly
U-factor of
5.1. How can I
input this
into eQUEST?
As far as I
know, I can
enter the
glass
properties and
the frame
properties. Do
I have to play
with the glass
properties and
check the LV-D
report for the
calculated
Assembly
u-value?</span><span
lang="EN-GB">
</span> </li>
</ol>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>A U of 5.1 does
not make sense.
Are you sure this
isn't R?<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Similarly,
for the
baseline,
Tables 5.5-1
to 5.5-8 of
ASHRAE 90.1
provide the
assembly
u-values for
vertical
glazing. How
can I enter
these values
into eQUEST?</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<ol start="3"
type="1">
<li><span
lang="EN-GB">I
am attaching
the specs of
the proposed
glazing. These
numbers are
for the glass
only (note
that the
u-values
reported are
NFRC ones).
Additionally,
I know that
the frame will
be aluminium.
Do I still
need NFRC
U-values for
the whole
assembly, or
is the NFRC
usually for
the glass
only? If yes,
how can I
calculate the
whole assembly
U-value (given
that eQUEST
doesn’t have
the ability to
calculate
this)</span><span
lang="EN-GB">
</span> </li>
</ol>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<span>For your
proposed
building I
highly recommend
you use LBNL's
Window program.
In it you can
select your
window type,
e.g. casement,
picture, etc,,
select your
glass from their
glass library,
which is huge
and definitely
includes
Solarban, and
then model your
frame using
whatever
information the
architect gives
you related to
thermal breaks
and spacers.
After you run
your window in
the program you
can select to
save it to a DOE
2 report which
will
automatically go
into your DOE 2
Window folder.
Then you just
have to select
it from the pull
down menu.</span><br>
<br>
<span>Otherwise,
input your glass
values, as you
are already, and
input your frame
data, the same
data you got
from your
architect, and
model it that
way. When you
look at your
LV-D report you
will likely see
a variety of U
values. That's
because they
will vary based
on window
size.due to the
frame effect.
You need to have
a frame.</span><br>
<br>
<span>As far as
NFRC, your
Solarban glass
data is NFRC
rated which
should be good
enough, I think.
It's rare in
commercial
buildings to
have a rating
for the entire
window.</span><br>
<br>
<span>Carol</span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Thanks
for clarifying
this, as my
project is
outside the US
and we are not
too familiar
with standards
such as NFRC.</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Best
regards,</span>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Omar</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">___________________________</span><span
lang="EN-GB">
</span> </div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Omar
Katanani</span><span
lang="EN-GB"><br>
</span><span
lang="EN-GB">Sustainable
Design
Engineer</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Email:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a></span> </div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<div><span>EcoConsulting
(Lebanon)</span>
</div>
</div>
<div><span>Nahas
Building, 4<sup>th</sup>
floor</span> </div>
<div>
<div><span>4
St-Maron
Street /
Georges Haddad
Avenue</span>
</div>
<div><span>Postal
Code: 2028
5806 SAIFI</span>
</div>
<div><span>Beirut,
Lebanon</span>
</div>
<div><span>Tel:
</span><span
lang="EN-GB"><a
moz-do-not-send="true">+961 (0) 1 971 266</a><br>
Mobile: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">+961 (0) 3 045 045</a></span> </div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<div>
<span
lang="EN-GB">EcoConsulting
(UK) Ltd<br>
28 Marshalsea
Road<br>
London, SE1
1HF<br>
Tel: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">+44
(0) 207 939
0989</a><br>
Fax: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">+44
(0) 207 939
0981</a></span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Website:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ecoconsulting.net/">www.ecoconsulting.net</a></span> </div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> <img
moz-do-not-send="true"></span> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div><b><span>From:</span></b><span>
Robby Oylear
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b>
28 July 2011
00:53<br>
<b>To:</b>
Omar Katanani<br>
<b>Cc:</b>
Brad Robinson;
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[Equest-users]
URGENT: Window
U-values:
Total window
assembly v/s
Glass only</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Omar,</span>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<span
lang="EN-GB">To
directly
answer your
question:</span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">"</span><span
lang="EN-GB">I’m
assuming that,
given that I
entered the
u-values for
the glass
only, and then
I entered
information
about the
frame, then I
need not worry
about any
conversions in
U-values,
since eQUEST
has all the
necessary
information to
calculate the
equivalent
u-value of the
whole pane +
frame
assembly,
right?</span><span
lang="EN-GB">"</span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">No.
Your method
will result in
an assembly
U-value based
on your input
glass
conductance
and whatever
default frame
properties
that the
eQUEST wizard
will use. I
have never
tried to let
eQUEST
determine an
assembly
value, as NFRC
values are
required for
LEED and code
compliance
studies. I
would not be
surprised if
the values
eQUEST is
calculating
(shown in LV-D
and LV-E
reports like
previously
mentioned) are
much different
than what
you'll
actually see
in the test
results.</span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Again,
NFRC values
are a LEED
requirement,
so unless
you're just
doing
preliminary
analysis for a
client, you
need to
receive NFRC
simulation
reports or
certified
product
directory
numbers in
accordance
with NFRC 100.</span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><b><span
lang="EN-GB">Robby
Oylear, LEED<sup>®</sup>
AP BD+C</span></b>
</div>
<div><i><span
lang="EN-GB">Mechanical
Project
Engineer</span></i>
</div>
<div><i><span
lang="EN-GB">Energy
Analyst</span></i>
</div>
<div><i><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span></i>
</div>
<div><b><span
lang="EN-GB">D</span></b><span
lang="EN-GB">
</span><span
lang="EN-GB"><a
moz-do-not-send="true">206-788-4571</a> |</span><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><b><span
lang="EN-GB">C</span></b><span
lang="EN-GB">
</span><span
lang="EN-GB"><a
moz-do-not-send="true">206-354-2721</a></span> </div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><b><i><span>www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a></span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> </span>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">On
Wed, Jul 27,
2011 at 2:44
PM, <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>>
wrote:</span>
</div>
<div>
<span
lang="EN-GB">Dear
Robby,<br>
<br>
Yes, I am
modeling for
LEED purposes.<br>
I'll look into
A8.2. But at
least, is my
method correct
for the
proposed
scenario?<br>
<br>
Brad: I think
you need to
enter the
center of
glass u-value
in the "Glass
Type", and
then enter the
frame
properties in
the "Window"
properties...<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Omar</span> </div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
Quoting Brad
Robinson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:brad.robinson@yahoo.com">brad.robinson@yahoo.com</a>>:</span>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
Is the u-value
listed for a
manufacturer
and specific
model on the
NRCAN website
centre of
glass or
overall
assembly?
Many windows
are custom
made to suit
so I am
unclear if
each
individual
custom window
would need to
be tested.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In eQuest,
when entering
the window, if
the u-value
represents the
whole window,
including
frame, do you
need to enter
a frame width,
conductance
etc as well
under the
Window Frame
section under
Window
Properties?
Thanks.<br>
<br>
<br>
Brad Robinson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Robby
Oylear <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Omar
Katanani <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>><br>
Cc: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Sent:
Wednesday,
July 27, 2011
12:32:08 PM<br>
Subject: Re:
[Equest-users]
URGENT: Window
U-values:
Total window
assembly v/s
Glass only<br>
<br>
<br>
Omar,<br>
<br>
The answer
depends on the
purpose of
your study.
If you're
trying to get
results for a
client on the
impact of the
glazing on
their energy
performance,
this may be
adequate.
Make sure
you've entered
in the framing
information
properly
(metal vs.
non-metal).<br>
<br>
I'd recommend
opening up
your
simulation
output results
file
(xxxx.SIM) and
going to the
either the
last page of
the LV-D
report or sort
through your
LV-E report to
see what value
eQUEST has
calculated.
Compare these
values to the
ASHRAE
Fundamentals
results for
overall
assembly
values
including
frame to see
how close
you've come.
I would not
blindly trust
that eQUEST
will give you
an appropriate
overall
assembly value
based on
entering only
the center of
glass number.<br>
<br>
However, if
this is for a
LEED study,
this is not
adequate.
This an
excerpt from
an e-mail I
sent out
recently
regarding LEED
and NFRC
requirements.<br>
<br>
In order to
meet LEED EAp2
Minimum Energy
Performance,
the project
must comply
with all
mandatory
provisions of
ASHRAE
90.1-2007.
Section 5.4.2
Fenestration
and Doors
requires that
fenestration
performance be
determined per
section 5.8.2.
Section
5.8.2.4
U-factor
requires that
the U-factor
for the
overall
fenestration
area
(including
framing) be
determined in
accordance
with NFRC 100.
If you do not
have NFRC data
available,
values from
section A8.2
are the only
acceptable
alternative.<br>
<br>
Robby Oylear,
LEED®AP BD+C<br>
Mechanical
Project
Engineer<br>
Energy Analyst<br>
</span> </div>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">D206-788-4571
|C206-354-2721</span>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<span
lang="EN-GB"><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rushingco.com">www.rushingco.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jul
27, 2011 at
8:14 AM, Omar
Katanani <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear all,</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> <br>
I have a small
question
regarding
entering</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">window
properties to
eQUEST:</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> <br>
I have read a
lot of emails
in the forum</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">discussing
NFRC testing,
LBNL Window 5
import, and
other topics
that I haven?t<br>
paid attention
to before.</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> <br>
The way I
modelled my
windows is the</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">following:</span>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> <br>
1. I
have
manufacturer?s
specifications
listing the
glass
U-values, not
the total
assembly.<br>
2. In
the ?Glass
Types? (eQUEST
Detailed
Mode), I
created glass
types, and
entered the
glass
conductance,
visible
transmittance,
SC, and
emissivity
from the
manufacturer?s
details I
have.<br>
3. When
creating
windows, I
specify which
glass type
(from the ones
I created in
step 2), in
addition to
the frame
width and
conductance.</span>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
I?m assuming
that, given
that I</span>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">entered
the u-values
for the glass
only, and then
I entered
information
about<br>
the frame,
then I need
not worry
about any
conversions in
U-values,
since<br>
eQUEST has all
the necessary
information to
calculate the
equivalent
u-value of<br>
the whole pane
+ frame
assembly,
right?</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> <br>
I appreciate
your feedback
/ comments</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">today
if possible,
as this has
become really
urgent!</span>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"> <br>
Many thanks,<br>
Omar<br>
___________________________<br>
Omar Katanani<br>
Sustainable
Design
Engineer<br>
Email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a><br>
<br>
EcoConsulting
(Lebanon)</span>
</div>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">NahasBuilding,
4th floor</span>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB"><br>
4 St-Maron
Street/
Georges Haddad
Avenue<br>
Postal Code:
2028 5806</span>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">SAIFI</span>
</div>
<div><span
lang="EN-GB">Beirut,
Lebanon<br>
Tel:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true">+961
(0) 1 971 266</a><br>
Mobile: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">+961 (0) 3 045 045</a><br>
<br>
EcoConsulting
(UK) Ltd<br>
28 Marshalsea
Road<br>
London, SE1
1HF<br>
Tel: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">+44
(0) 207 939
0989</a><br>
Fax: <a
moz-do-not-send="true">+44
(0) 207 939
0981</a><br>
Website: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ecoconsulting.net">www.ecoconsulting.net</a><br>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">
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