<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div><span>There are, it seems, a multitude of ways people on this forum go about modeling windows. It would be interesting to know, in terms of a LEED review, what others have been required to provide in terms of modeling the windows. Does anyone have experience on the Canadian side of the border what is required? Thanks.</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Brad Robinson<br></span></div><div><br></div><div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Arial" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> R B <slv3sat@gmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> eQUEST Users List <equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org><br><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 30, 2011 11:29:31 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<br></font><br><div id="yiv1044702846"><div id="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbs" class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbs">Came across this in eQuest help - basically suggests to use zero frame width.</div><div class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbs">-Rohini</div><div class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbs"> </div><div class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbs">
</div><div class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbs"><a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbsNormal">Volume 2: Dictionary</a><span class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbsLinkSeparator"> > </span><a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbsNormal">Envelope Components</a><span class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbsLinkSeparator"> > </span><a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbsNormal">WINDOW</a><span class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbsLinkSeparator"> >
</span><a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1044702846d2h_breadcrumbsNormal">Window Frames and Skylight
Curbs</a></div>
<h5>FRAME-WIDTH</h5>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoBodyText">Projected width of the frame in the plane of the glazing
(<a rel="nofollow">Figure 27</a>). We recommend that
frames be entered only if the frame area is more than 10 percent or so of the
glazed area, which is generally only the case in residential applications. The
program assumes that the frame width is the same on all sides of the window. If
this is not the case, use the average frame width.</div>
<br>
<br><div class="yiv1044702846gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Alex Krickx <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com">akrickx@seriousenergy.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;" class="yiv1044702846gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-US"><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">Great thread-<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">To answer Vikram’s question - When using WINDOW, you are slightly limited in the output file (for example, if I create an NFRC-type model to figure out U-value for a curtainwall system, I will need to simply the window to export it into a DOE-2 report format). When you do import a WINDOW Report for DOE-2 into eQUEST it does not load any frame information with it – it presents the COG glass performance. My process is to adjust the spacer type and frame width+conductance to make an object that matches what WINDOW tells me my window performance is.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">I don’t model for LEED, so am less familiar with what is required for that – since I work for a window manufacturer I usually have access to all the data I need to determine frame-inclusive u-value and SHGCs, i.e. no need to rely on 90.1 defaults. <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">Since the conversation was about using NFRC data – let me ask this question: NFRC data for windows (curtainwall assemblies included) is for a “default” size. I believe for curtainwall a mulled unit is modeled at 2m x 2m (or 78.54” x 78.54”) – as shown below:<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><img height="491" width="533"></span><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">This is an example, but let’s say that the NFRC value is U-0.34. If your building has a smaller or larger window (which will change the glass-to-frame ratio) the U-value will be different. <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">Is it still appropriate to use the NFRC value in that case, where it is entered as a frame-inclusive U-factor and SHGC? I’m curious as to how others approach this issue when dealing with models for compliance.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">Kind regards,<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">Alex Krickx<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(38, 47, 19);">Alex Krickx, LEED AP<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:gray;font-size:11pt;">Building Energy Specialist<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:10pt;">Serious Energy, Inc.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:10pt;">1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:10pt;">(t) <a rel="nofollow">408.541.8124</a><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:10pt;"><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com">akrickx@seriousenergy.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;font-size:9pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181, 196, 223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sami, Vikram<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29, 2011 1:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> Robby Oylear; Bill Talbert; Carol Gardner</span></div><div><div></div><div class="yiv1044702846h5"><br><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div></div><div class="yiv1044702846h5"><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">Firstly – congratulations to all contributors – I think this is probably the first time (that I recall) that all of the posts on this list have been on a single thread. I couldn’t resist being a part of this so I’m going to add my 2 cents:<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">90.1 baseline values & SHGC are assembly u-values so your frame needs to be calculated into this. To get the derated value – you could either use the handy little XL spreadsheet that comes with the install of eQUEST (under the data\window folder) called eQUEST-DOE2 Glass Library.xls. This gives you COG values <b><u>AND</u></b> glass+frame NFRC values. They have separate table where it is sorted by U-value and SHGC – I use it all the time (screenshot below). <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<img height="134" width="1197"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">So you can select your values in conjunction with the values below from the DOE2 help file to get what you need. <u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div align="center"><table style="border-collapse:collapse;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="background:aqua;padding:0in 5.4pt;border:1pt solid windowtext;width:2.05in;" valign="top" width="197">
<div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center"><b><br>Frame Type</b><u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="background:aqua;border-width:1pt medium;border-style:solid none;border-color:windowtext currentColor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:109.8pt;" valign="top" width="146">
<div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center"><b>FRAME-CONDUCT (excludes OA film)</b><u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="background:aqua;border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentColor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:1.5in;" valign="top" width="144">
<div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center"><b><br>U-value<sup>a</sup></b><u></u><u></u></div></td></tr><tr><td style="border-width:medium 1pt;border-style:none solid;border-color:currentColor windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:2.05in;" valign="top" width="197">
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">Thermally unbroken aluminum<u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="padding:0in 5.4pt;width:109.8pt;" valign="top" width="146"><div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">3.037 (17.24)<u></u><u></u></div>
</td><td style="border-width:medium 1pt medium medium;border-style:none solid none none;border-color:currentColor windowtext currentColor currentColor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:1.5in;" valign="top" width="144"><div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">
1.90 (10.79)<u></u><u></u></div></td></tr><tr><td style="border-width:medium 1pt;border-style:none solid;border-color:currentColor windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:2.05in;" valign="top" width="197"><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
Thermally broken aluminum<u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="padding:0in 5.4pt;width:109.8pt;" valign="top" width="146"><div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">1.245 (7.07)<u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="border-width:medium 1pt medium medium;border-style:none solid none none;border-color:currentColor windowtext currentColor currentColor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:1.5in;" valign="top" width="144">
<div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">1.00 (5.68)<u></u><u></u></div></td></tr><tr><td style="border-width:medium 1pt;border-style:none solid;border-color:currentColor windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:2.05in;" valign="top" width="197">
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">External flush glazed aluminum<u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="padding:0in 5.4pt;width:109.8pt;" valign="top" width="146"><div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">0.812 (4.61)<u></u><u></u></div>
</td><td style="border-width:medium 1pt medium medium;border-style:none solid none none;border-color:currentColor windowtext currentColor currentColor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:1.5in;" valign="top" width="144"><div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">
0.70 (3.97)<u></u><u></u></div></td></tr><tr><td style="border-width:medium 1pt;border-style:none solid;border-color:currentColor windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:2.05in;" valign="top" width="197"><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
Wood with or without cladding<u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="padding:0in 5.4pt;width:109.8pt;" valign="top" width="146"><div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">0.434 (2.46)<u></u><u></u></div></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt medium medium;border-style:none solid none none;border-color:currentColor windowtext currentColor currentColor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:1.5in;" valign="top" width="144"><div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">
0.40 (2.27)<u></u><u></u></div></td></tr><tr><td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentColor windowtext windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:2.05in;" valign="top" width="197">
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">Vinyl<u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="border-width:medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:109.8pt;" valign="top" width="146">
<div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">0.319 (1.81)<u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor windowtext windowtext currentColor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:1.5in;" valign="top" width="144">
<div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center">0.30 (1.70)<u></u><u></u></div></td></tr><tr><td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentColor windowtext windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:365.4pt;" colspan="3" valign="top" width="487">
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><sup>a</sup> U-value includes OA film at 15 mph [6.7 m/s] windspeed<br> FRAME-CONDUCT = [(U-value)<sup>-1</sup> - 0.197]<sup>-1</sup> Btu/ft2-F-h<br> FRAME-CONDUCT = [(U-value)<sup>-1</sup> - 0.035]<sup>-1</sup> W/m2-K<u></u><u></u></div>
</td></tr></tbody></table></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(220, 170, 44);font-size:10pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">Alternately, you can select a COG value to match what you want, set your frame to zero and your spacer to UE-EQ-UC (this will give you a uniform COG conductance across the assembly).<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;">I am curious about LBNL window imports. When you set up your assembly in window – it includes frames, but you import it in as a glass type – should you zero out the frame (as in the second case) if you import from window? <u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(220, 170, 44);font-size:10pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<b><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;">Vikram Sami</span></b><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;">, LEED AP BD+C<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;">Sustainable Design Analyst<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;">1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;">t: <a rel="nofollow">404-443-7462</a> f: </span><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;" lang="ES"><a rel="nofollow">404.892.5823</a> </span><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;"> e: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vikram.sami@perkinswill.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vikram.sami@perkinswill.com">vikram.sami@perkinswill.com</a> </span><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.perkinswill.com/"><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;text-decoration:none;">www.perkinswill.com</span></a></span><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom:3pt;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;">Perkins+Will.</span></b><span style="color:gray;font-size:9pt;"> </span><span style="color:rgb(173, 212, 37);font-size:9pt;">Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society</span><span style="color:green;font-size:9pt;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181, 196, 223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in;">
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robby Oylear<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29, 2011 4:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bill Talbert; Carol Gardner<br><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">From the 90.1 User's Manual pg 5-12:<u></u><u></u></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">"With Addendum 90.1ag (published <u></u><u></u></div>
<div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">with Standard 90.1-2001) glazed wall <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">systems, including glass curtain walls used <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">on large buildings, storefront glazing <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">systems, and other similar products that <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">are assembled at the construction site, as <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">opposed to at the factory, must either be <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">rated using NFRC procedures or the <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">default U-factor, SHGC and VLT from <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">Table A8.2. Since the performance values <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">in Table A8.1A are based on uncoated <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">clear glass in poorly performing metal <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">frame, they do not offer any credit for <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">low-e coatings, thermal break frames or <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">any other advanced feature. In general, <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">values from Table A8.1A will not achieve <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">compliance with the fenestration <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">requirements. <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">The NFRC procedure for site-built <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">fenestration is described in NFRC 100. <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">The NFRC ratings are based on computer <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">simulations of various product options at <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">standard sizes. (For curtain walls, the <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">standard size specified is 2000 mm by <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">2000 mm, or approximately 79 in. by 79 <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">in.) Multiple glass options can be included <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">in one simulation matrix. The entire <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">simulation matrix is then validated by a <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">single physical test at the standard size. If <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">the matrix for a product has previously <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">been validated, then a new glass option <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">can be added to the matrix by simulation <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">alone. Simulations and tests must be done <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">by an NFRC-accredited simulation and <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">test laboratories." <u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">Also, the LEED Reference Guide for Green Building Design and Construction, pg 275 specifically references Tables A8.1 and A8.2 or requires that the products be certified and labeled in accordance with NFRC. <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">Not seeing any statements that would allow the modeler to perform their own fenestration assembly performance calculations.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">-Robby<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Bill Talbert <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:btalbert@aeieng.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:btalbert@aeieng.com">btalbert@aeieng.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">Regarding Omar’s first question, I would also clarify that adding a frame to the baseline is probably not the correct approach unless you are adjusting the U-value to a center of glass value and accounting for the frame and edge effects such that the total fenestration performance is equal to the 90.1 prescribed value.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="text-indent:0.5in;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(84, 141, 212);font-size:11pt;">‘They are silent about frames but I would use one, match the frame width of your proposed window. Use an Aluminum frame with no thermal break.’</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">Baseline Table 5.5-1 through 5.5-8 specify ‘fenestration assembly’ values which include the effect of the frames and edge of glass. Modeling a frame in the Baseline will further degrade the overall fenestration U-value (unless your frame outperforms the glazing) and result in overestimating the savings relative to the fenestration performance. If you use the Table values for your window performance, frames shouldn’t be included. If you include a frame, you should create a 90.1 compliant product using WINDOW and use the appropriate frame and glazing performance values as eQuest inputs such that your overall frame and glazing performance matches the A90.1 Table value.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">Bill</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><table style="width:355.5pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" width="474"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:0.75pt;width:125.25pt;" valign="top" width="167">
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(102, 0, 0);text-transform:uppercase;font-size:10pt;">Bill Talbert</span></b><b><span style="color:rgb(51, 51, 51);font-size:9pt;"> </span></b><span style="color:rgb(51, 51, 51);font-size:9pt;">PE, LEED® AP<br>
</span><span style="color:rgb(51, 51, 51);text-transform:uppercase;font-size:10pt;">Sustainable</span><u></u><u></u></div></td><td style="padding:0.75pt;width:7.5pt;" valign="top" width="10"><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51, 51, 51);font-size:9pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
</td><td style="padding:0.75pt;width:212.25pt;" valign="top" width="283"><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(102, 0, 0);font-size:9pt;">AEI</span></b><span style="color:rgb(51, 51, 51);font-size:9pt;"> | AFFILIATED ENGINEERS, INC. <br>
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</span><span style="color:rgb(102, 0, 0);font-size:9pt;"><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:btalbert@aeieng.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:btalbert@aeieng.com"><span style="color:rgb(102, 0, 0);text-decoration:none;">btalbert@aeieng.com</span></a> | <b><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.aeieng.com/"><span style="color:rgb(102, 0, 0);text-decoration:none;">www.aeieng.com</span></a></b></span><span style="color:rgb(51, 51, 51);font-size:9pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
</td></tr></tbody></table><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt;"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181, 196, 223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29, 2011 1:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> Robby Oylear</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><br><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div><div>
This came off of the Window website:<u></u><u></u></div><div>WINDOW 6.3 is a publicly available computer program for calculating total window thermal performance indices (i.e. U-values, solar heat gain coefficients, shading coefficients, and visible transmittances). WINDOW 6.3 provides a versatile heat transfer analysis method consistent with the updated rating procedure developed by the National Fenestration Rating Council (NFRC) that is consistent with the ISO 15099 standard. The program can be used to design and develop new products, to assist educators in teaching heat transfer through windows, and to help public officials in developing building energy codes. <u></u><u></u></div>
<div> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Robby Oylear <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
<div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">Carol,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">I have to take exception to this:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">"As far as NFRC, your Solarban glass data is NFRC rated which should be good enough, I think. It's rare in commercial buildings to have a rating for the entire window."<u></u><u></u></div>
<div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">From my first response: <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;">In order to meet LEED EAp2 Minimum Energy Performance, the project must comply with all mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1-2007. Section 5.4.2 Fenestration and Doors requires that fenestration performance be determined per section 5.8.2. Section 5.8.2.4 U-factor requires that the U-factor for the overall fenestration area (including framing) be determined in accordance with NFRC 100. If you do not have NFRC data available, values from section A8.2 are the only acceptable alternative.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">NFRC values for the glazing alone not "good enough". This is exactly what the reviewer is trying to get at.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">I'd hardly call NFRC certification rare. In the State of Washington NFRC certification has been required for all glazing assemblies for over 10 years. <u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">How do you justify certifying that your projects have met the mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1 without NFRC data?<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:1pt;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><a rel="nofollow" name="13177c071350ddb0_1317746f9272af25_13177255b63123b2__MailA"><b><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);font-size:10pt;">Robby Oylear, LEED</span></b></a><b><sup><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);font-size:10pt;">®</span></sup></b><b><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);font-size:10pt;"> AP BD+C</span></b><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black;font-size:8pt;">Mechanical Project Engineer</span></i><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black;font-size:8pt;">Energy Analyst</span></i><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black;font-size:8pt;"> </span></i><u></u><u></u></div><div style="line-height:115%;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;">D</span></b><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;"> </span><span style="color:black;line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;"><a rel="nofollow">206-788-4571</a> |</span><span style="color:rgb(191, 171, 127);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;"> </span><b><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;">C</span></b><span style="color:rgb(165, 0, 33);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;"> </span><span style="color:black;line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;"><a rel="nofollow">206-354-2721</a></span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="line-height:115%;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><b><i><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;">www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Carol Gardner <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com">cmg750@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Omar Katanani <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Dear all,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Thank you for your responses.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
<ol start="1" type="1"><li style="color:navy;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Are the NFRC testing and the values in table A8.2 used for the Baseline, Proposed, or both scenarios?</span><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ol></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="background:white;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">For the baseline windows, Appendix G gives the following instructions:<br>Fenestration<br>U-factors shall match the appropriate requirements in Tables 5.5-1 through<br>
5.5-8. Fenestration SHGC shall match the appropriate requirements in Tables<br>5.5-1 through 5.5-8. <br>They are silent about frames but I would use one, match the frame width of your proposed window. Use an Aluminum frame with no thermal break.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<div><div><div style="margin-left:0.25in;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><ol start="2" type="1"><li style="color:navy;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Let’s say I do not have NFRC test results and decide to use the values in table A8.2. For a clear double glazed and metal frame type, I get an assembly U-factor of 5.1. How can I input this into eQUEST? As far as I know, I can enter the glass properties and the frame properties. Do I have to play with the glass properties and check the LV-D report for the calculated Assembly u-value?</span><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ol></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">A U of 5.1 does not make sense. Are you sure this isn't R?<br> <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<div><div><div style="text-indent:0.5in;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Similarly, for the baseline, Tables 5.5-1 to 5.5-8 of ASHRAE 90.1 provide the assembly u-values for vertical glazing. How can I enter these values into eQUEST?</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin-left:0.25in;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><ol start="3" type="1"><li style="color:navy;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">I am attaching the specs of the proposed glazing. These numbers are for the glass only (note that the u-values reported are NFRC ones). Additionally, I know that the frame will be aluminium. Do I still need NFRC U-values for the whole assembly, or is the NFRC usually for the glass only? If yes, how can I calculate the whole assembly U-value (given that eQUEST doesn’t have the ability to calculate this)</span><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ol></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><br><span style="background:white;">For your proposed building I highly recommend you use LBNL's Window program. In it you can select your window type, e.g. casement, picture, etc,, select your glass from their glass library, which is huge and definitely includes Solarban, and then model your frame using whatever information the architect gives you related to thermal breaks and spacers. After you run your window in the program you can select to save it to a DOE 2 report which will automatically go into your DOE 2 Window folder. Then you just have to select it from the pull down menu.</span><br>
<br><span style="background:white;">Otherwise, input your glass values, as you are already, <u>and</u> input your frame data, the same data you got from your architect, and model it that way. When you look at your LV-D report you will likely see a variety of U values. That's because they will vary based on window size.due to the frame effect. You need to have a frame.</span><br>
<br><span style="background:white;">As far as NFRC, your Solarban glass data is NFRC rated which should be good enough, I think. It's rare in commercial buildings to have a rating for the entire window.</span><br><br>
<span style="background:white;">Carol</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Thanks for clarifying this, as my project is outside the US and we are not too familiar with standards such as NFRC.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div>
<div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Omar</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">___________________________</span><span style="color:navy;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Omar Katanani</span><span style="color:navy;" lang="EN-GB"><br></span><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Sustainable Design Engineer</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Email: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a></span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
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<span style="color:navy;font-size:7.5pt;" lang="EN-GB">EcoConsulting (UK) Ltd<br>28 Marshalsea Road<br>London, SE1 1HF<br>Tel: <a rel="nofollow">+44 (0) 207 939 0989</a><br>
Fax: <a rel="nofollow">+44 (0) 207 939 0981</a></span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;font-size:7.5pt;" lang="EN-GB">Website: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.ecoconsulting.net/">www.ecoconsulting.net</a></span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color:navy;font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> <img border="0" height="102" width="870"></span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div></div><div><div style="text-align:center;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal" align="center"><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;"> Robby Oylear [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> 28 July 2011 00:53<br><b>To:</b> Omar Katanani<br><b>Cc:</b> Brad Robinson; <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></div><div>
<div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Omar,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB">To directly answer your question:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">"</span><span style="color:navy;font-size:9pt;" lang="EN-GB">I’m assuming that, given that I entered the u-values for the glass only, and then I entered information about the frame, then I need not worry about any conversions in U-values, <u>since eQUEST has all the necessary information to calculate the equivalent u-value of the whole pane + frame assembly,</u>right?</span><span lang="EN-GB">"</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">No. Your method will result in an assembly U-value based on your input glass conductance and whatever default frame properties that the eQUEST wizard will use. I have never tried to let eQUEST determine an assembly value, as NFRC values are required for LEED and code compliance studies. I would not be surprised if the values eQUEST is calculating (shown in LV-D and LV-E reports like previously mentioned) are much different than what you'll actually see in the test results.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Again, NFRC values are a LEED requirement, so unless you're just doing preliminary analysis for a client, you need to receive NFRC simulation reports or certified product directory numbers in accordance with NFRC 100.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:1pt;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);font-size:10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Robby Oylear, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP BD+C</span></b><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black;font-size:8pt;" lang="EN-GB">Mechanical Project Engineer</span></i><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black;font-size:8pt;" lang="EN-GB">Energy Analyst</span></i><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black;font-size:8pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span></i><u></u><u></u></div><div style="line-height:115%;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;" lang="EN-GB">D</span></b><span style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><span style="color:black;line-height:115%;font-size:7.5pt;" lang="EN-GB"><a rel="nofollow">206-788-4571</a> |</span><span style="color:rgb(191, 171, 127);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><b><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;" lang="EN-GB">C</span></b><span style="color:rgb(165, 0, 33);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span><span style="color:black;line-height:115%;font-size:7.5pt;" lang="EN-GB"><a rel="nofollow">206-354-2721</a></span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="line-height:115%;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><b><i><span style="color:rgb(99, 36, 35);line-height:115%;font-size:8pt;">www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a></span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:44 PM, <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>> wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB">Dear Robby,<br><br>Yes, I am modeling for LEED purposes.<br>I'll look into A8.2. But at least, is my method correct for the proposed scenario?<br><br>Brad: I think you need to enter the center of glass u-value in the "Glass Type", and then enter the frame properties in the "Window" properties...<br>
<br>Best,<br>Omar</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><br><br>Quoting Brad Robinson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:brad.robinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:brad.robinson@yahoo.com">brad.robinson@yahoo.com</a>>:</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><br><br>Is the u-value listed for a manufacturer and specific model on the NRCAN website centre of glass or overall assembly? Many windows are custom made to suit so I am unclear if each individual custom window would need to be tested.<br>
<br><br><br>In eQuest, when entering the window, if the u-value represents the whole window, including frame, do you need to enter a frame width, conductance etc as well under the Window Frame section under Window Properties? Thanks.<br>
<br><br>Brad Robinson<br><br><br><br>________________________________<br>From: Robby Oylear <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>><br>To: Omar Katanani <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>><br>
Cc: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:32:08 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<br>
<br><br>Omar,<br><br>The answer depends on the purpose of your study. If you're trying to get results for a client on the impact of the glazing on their energy performance, this may be adequate. Make sure you've entered in the framing information properly (metal vs. non-metal).<br>
<br>I'd recommend opening up your simulation output results file (xxxx.SIM) and going to the either the last page of the LV-D report or sort through your LV-E report to see what value eQUEST has calculated. Compare these values to the ASHRAE Fundamentals results for overall assembly values including frame to see how close you've come. I would not blindly trust that eQUEST will give you an appropriate overall assembly value based on entering only the center of glass number.<br>
<br>However, if this is for a LEED study, this is not adequate. This an excerpt from an e-mail I sent out recently regarding LEED and NFRC requirements.<br><br>In order to meet LEED EAp2 Minimum Energy Performance, the project must comply with all mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1-2007. Section 5.4.2 Fenestration and Doors requires that fenestration performance be determined per section 5.8.2. Section 5.8.2.4 U-factor requires that the U-factor for the overall fenestration area (including framing) be determined in accordance with NFRC 100. If you do not have NFRC data available, values from section A8.2 are the only acceptable alternative.<br>
<br>Robby Oylear, LEED®AP BD+C<br>Mechanical Project Engineer<br>Energy Analyst<br> </span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">D206-788-4571 |C206-354-2721</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-GB"><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.rushingco.com">www.rushingco.com</a><br><br><br><br><br><br>On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Omar Katanani <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>Dear all,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> <br>I have a small question regarding entering</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">window properties to eQUEST:</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> <br>I have read a lot of emails in the forum</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">discussing NFRC testing, LBNL Window 5 import, and other topics that I haven?t<br>
paid attention to before.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> <br>The way I modelled my windows is the</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">following:</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> <br> 1. I have manufacturer?s specifications listing the glass U-values, not the total assembly.<br> 2. In the ?Glass Types? (eQUEST Detailed Mode), I created glass types, and entered the glass conductance, visible transmittance, SC, and emissivity from the manufacturer?s details I have.<br>
3. When creating windows, I specify which glass type (from the ones I created in step 2), in addition to the frame width and conductance.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><br> <br>
I?m assuming that, given that I</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">entered the u-values for the glass only, and then I entered information about<br>the frame, then I need not worry about any conversions in U-values, since<br>
eQUEST has all the necessary information to calculate the equivalent u-value of<br>the whole pane + frame assembly, right?</span><u></u><u></u></div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> <br>I appreciate your feedback / comments</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">today if possible, as this has become really urgent!</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> <br>Many thanks,<br>Omar<br>___________________________<br>Omar Katanani<br>Sustainable Design Engineer<br>Email: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a><br>
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Postal Code: 2028 5806</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote><div><div class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">SAIFI</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="yiv1044702846MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Beirut, Lebanon<br>
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