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<font size="+1">I notice you are using the simple method to define
your window. I typically use the composite and use the glass
library as well. I have attached 3 screen shots on a thermopane
window spec I'm using. This is just a plain jane window 2 layers
of 6mm glass and a 1/2" air space. I think it had a steel frame.
You can see from the data on my window it is a lot more
comprehensive than I would assume you are getting using the
simplified method. With this data it is much easier to show the
reviewer what you are doing, what is taken into account. It also
makes creating a new window for your proposed case much easier.
Glass and coatings are very complex and the angle of incidence
comes into play as well. You can check your numbers against these
on my screen shots and also compare them to A8.2. I haven't
looked close at your file but I agree with Robby, you need to
check your inputs and you have to clearly show the reviewer what
is going on so they can understand.<br>
I notice you are doing an elementary school. ASHRAE has a design
guide out on this type of building and a few more on this link.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.hpbmagazine.org/energy-guidance">http://www.hpbmagazine.org/energy-guidance</a> You might find some
good tips.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
</font><br>
On 29/07/2011 11:47 AM, Omar Katanani wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Robby,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I was just doing some
sensitivity analysis
for my own sake when I put the frame width into zero. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Should the values in
table A8.2 be used
for the Baseline? If that is the case, then I should use
5.1W/m<sup>2</sup>-C (0.9
Btu/h-ft<sup>2</sup>-F) for my case, which is much less
stringent than the 3.41W/m<sup>2</sup>-C
(0.6 Btu/h-ft<sup>2</sup>-F) and this would be to my
advantage </span></font><font color="navy"
face="Wingdings" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy">J</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">However, if I am
required to use A8.2 for
the proposed, then I should the figure of 0.9 Btu/h-ft<sup>2</sup>-F
with the
baseline u-value being 0.6Btu/h-ft<sup>2</sup>-F. This
would definitely worsen
my thermal model results for LEED and very probably risk
my 10% prerequisite of
improvement over the baseline! </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The glazing is pretty
impressive. I’m
attaching the specs, highlighted in yellow. The Glass
U-value if 0.26 Btu/h-ft<sup>2</sup>-F.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Additionally, if I am
to use the assembly
U-value of 0.9 Btu/h-ft<sup>2</sup>-F for my baseline,
what is the best way to
enter it to eQUEST? Shall I enter the glass properties to
0.9 and zero out the
frame width?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Many thanks,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
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style="font-size:
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Katanani</span></font><font color="navy"><span
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> <img
src="cid:part1.04040106.00090102@bellnet.ca"
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<div>
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</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma" lang="EN-US">
Robby Oylear [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> 29
July 2011 18:17<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Omar
Katanani<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Bruce
Easterbrook;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Equest-users]
URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass
only</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">Omar,</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">If I was the reviewer in this case I'd have
trouble understanding how
eQUEST is accounting for frame effects when you've set
the frame width to zero.
Honestly, I think the only acceptable values you should
be using are from
the table in Appendix A if you don't have an equivalent
nationally recognized
certification program. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">Also, your SHGC looks really low compared to
your visible
transmittance. Unless you're using some pretty
impressive glazing or low-e
coatings I'd expect the VT to be around 0.5-ish for a
glazing assembly with an
SHGC of 0.29.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:1.0pt"><b><span
style="mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast"><font
color="#632423" face="Verdana" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Verdana;color:#632423;font-weight:bold">Robby
Oylear, LEED</span><sup>®</sup><span
style="mso-fareast-theme-font:
minor-fareast"> AP BD+C</span></font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
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face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Omar Katanani
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="blue">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thanks Bruce,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I have an
additional question:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><font
color="navy" face="Wingdings" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy">Ø</span></font><font
color="navy" size="1"><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:navy">
</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy">In the “Glass
prop.jpg” file
attached, I entered the glass conductance as 0.6
Btu/h-ft2-F</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><font
color="navy" face="Wingdings" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy">Ø</span></font><font
color="navy" size="1"><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:navy">
</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy">In the “Window
specs.jpg” file, I
entered the frame width as zero.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><font
color="navy" face="Wingdings" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy">Ø</span></font><font
color="navy" size="1"><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:navy">
</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy">However, when I look
at my LV-D report, I notice
that the Average U-value for the windows is 0.509
Btu/h-ft2-F</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Why is this
number different from the
glass conductance, given that I am assuming the
frame width zero (i.e, the
window is only composed of glass)?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I need to
figure this out in order to
argue with the LEED Reviewer that eQUEST has the
ability to capture frame
effects.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Many thanks,</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Omar</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">___________________________</span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Omar
Katanani</span></font><br>
<font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy">Sustainable Design Engineer</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a></span></font></p>
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<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"
lang="EN-US">
Bruce Easterbrook [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca"
target="_blank">bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
28 July 2011 19:36<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Omar Katanani</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Equest-users] URGENT:
Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s
Glass only</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="4"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">I would try
showing the frame effects are
accounted for. I checked my ASHRAE Fundamentals
text and the SHGC numbers
seem close for 6mm glass double glazed with an
aluminum frame in Table A8.2.
This is a complicated area and I don't get this
deep into it. This also
seems to be a LEED US wrinkle from the question.
The reference to
referencing A8.2 would only apply to the base case
anyway not to your proposed
glass. <span style="background:yellow">So it
would seem to me you show
eQuest does account for the frames, which it
does</span> and that your proposed
glass values are reasonable or you look at NFRC
and pick a manufacturer making
a window close to what you are proposing. I think
the biggest problem is
the reviewer is not very experienced and is just
giving you a stock reply.<br>
Bruce</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
On 28/07/2011 11:01 AM, Omar Katanani wrote: </span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Bruce,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The
project is in Lebanon, and there are pretty
much no standards relating to energy
whatsoever!</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The LEED
Review I got is the following:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:36.0pt;text-autospace:none"><i><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;font-style:italic">“It is It is
unclear whether the window
U-value of 0.26 and SHGC of 0.28 used for
the Proposed case accounts for the
impact of the window frames on the whole
assembly as required by ASHRAE
modeling protocol. Please provide additional
information to confirm that the
framed assembly U-value was used for the
Proposed case windows (e.g. showing
that the whole window assembly has been
tested by NFRC, or verifying that LBNL
Window5 calculations have been provided for
the whole assembly, or <u>verifying
that the frame effects are captured within
the energy modeling software</u>),
or revise the model referencing ASHRAE
90.1-2007 Table A8.2 if needed.”</span></font></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Can we
argue that the frame effects are
captured within eQUEST, as per the underlined
phrase?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Do you
recommend using table A8.2, or are
its U-values too high?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Best
regards,</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Omar</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">___________________________</span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Omar
Katanani</span></font><br>
<font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy">Sustainable Design
Engineer</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Email:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy"
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lang="EN-US">EcoConsulting (Lebanon)</span></font></p>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"
lang="EN-US">
Bruce Easterbrook [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca"
target="_blank">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
28 July 2011 17:36<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Omar Katanani<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
Robby Oylear; Brad Robinson; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Equest-users]
URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
assembly v/s Glass only</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times
New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times
New Roman" size="4"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">Hi Omar,<br>
This is where LEED and eQuest can get
complicated. As
you are outside the US the NFRC test results
won't apply to you. This is
a US window test standard. Being from Canada
we have CSA test
requirements for windows, we don't use NFRC.
Basically you need to use
the base standard for your country for your
baseline. LEED Canada has
adjusted the LEED documents in this area to
reflect our testing agency and what
we consider a base window. Has the country
you are building in done the
same?<br>
So to get you going I would assume a base
window in eQuest
for the baseline. Use 6mm clear glass, 1/2"
air space, 6mm glass,
metal spacer. Also pick a base frame as well,
this would depend on the
type of building you are doing, so select a
plain frame in common use, if metal
choose a frame without a thermal break. This
should be easy to defend on
a LEED review. If there is a specific country
version of LEED for your
location then you could adjust for this later
once you get the required
information. For your proposed you would
build the window you are
considering using the window manufacturers
specs. All manufacturers will
not offer all glass types. In the window
industry there are the glass
manufacturers, they make the glass. Window
manufacturers buy the glass
and make the frames. Now you can see the
reasoning behind the NFRC
testing and testing the total window, glass
and frame, it is window
manufacturer specific. But it does make a
conflict with eQuest and the
way it was programmed and the way windows are
input. Realistically the
frame it not going to make much difference
except if it is metal and there is a
thermal break. The glass being the
overwhelming area of the window is
going to have the largest impact. This is
what you want to be playing
with in eQuest, determining the cost
effectiveness of different types of glass
and the payouts. As long as you operate from
a realistic baseline which
is the current standard construction used in
the country of the build then you
can evaluate your proposed glass because you
are looking at differential costs
and savings. If your baseline changes it
won't make very much difference,
you have already been able to select your
window, it will just effect the
payback period and it will be a minor
difference. This does let you get
98% of the window work done.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
</span></font><br>
On 28/07/2011 08:40 AM, Omar Katanani wrote: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Dear all,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thank you
for your responses.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Are
the NFRC testing and the values in table
A8.2 used for the Baseline, Proposed, or
both scenarios?</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Let’s
say I do not have NFRC test results and
decide to use the values in table A8.2. For
a clear double glazed and metal frame type,
I get an assembly U-factor of 5.1. How can I
input this into eQUEST? As far as I know, I
can enter the glass properties and the frame
properties. Do I have to play with the glass
properties and check the LV-D report for the
calculated Assembly u-value?</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Similarly,
for
the baseline, Tables 5.5-1 to 5.5-8 of ASHRAE
90.1 provide the assembly
u-values for vertical glazing. How can I enter
these values into eQUEST?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<ol start="3" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">I
am attaching the specs of the proposed
glazing. These numbers are for the glass
only (note that the u-values reported are
NFRC ones). Additionally, I know that the
frame will be aluminium. Do I still need
NFRC U-values for the whole assembly, or is
the NFRC usually for the glass only? If yes,
how can I calculate the whole assembly
U-value (given that eQUEST doesn’t have the
ability to calculate this)</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thanks
for clarifying this, as my project
is outside the US and we are not too familiar
with standards such as NFRC.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Best
regards,</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Omar</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy"
face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">___________________________</span></font><font
color="navy"><span style="color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy"
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<div>
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New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black" lang="EN-US">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"
lang="EN-US">
Robby Oylear [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com"
target="_blank">mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
28 July 2011 00:53<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Omar Katanani<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
Brad Robinson; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Equest-users]
URGENT: Window U-values: Total window
assembly v/s Glass only</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times
New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times
New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Omar,</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black">To directly
answer your question:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black">"</span></font><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="1"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">I’m assuming that, given that I
entered the u-values for the
glass only, and then I entered information
about the frame, then I need not
worry about any conversions in U-values, <u>since
eQUEST has all the
necessary information to calculate the
equivalent u-value of the whole pane +
frame assembly,</u>right?</span></font>"</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black">No.
Your method will result in an assembly
U-value based on your input glass
conductance and whatever default frame
properties that the eQUEST wizard will
use. I have never tried to let eQUEST
determine an assembly value, as
NFRC values are required for LEED and code
compliance studies. I would
not be surprised if the values eQUEST is
calculating (shown in LV-D and LV-E
reports like previously mentioned) are much
different than what you'll actually
see in the test results.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black">Again, NFRC
values are a LEED requirement, so unless
you're just doing preliminary analysis
for a client, you need to receive NFRC
simulation reports or certified product
directory numbers in accordance with NFRC
100.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:1.0pt"><b><font
color="#632423" face="Verdana" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#632423;
font-weight:bold">Robby Oylear, LEED<sup>®</sup>
AP BD+C</span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font color="black"
face="Verdana" size="1"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-style:italic">Mechanical
Project
Engineer</span></font></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font color="black"
face="Verdana" size="1"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-style:italic">Energy
Analyst</span></font></i></p>
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face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
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</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roman";color:black"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roma" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roma";color:black">On Wed, Jul
27, 2011 at 2:44 PM, <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Roma" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Roma";color:black">Dear Robby,<br>
<br>
Yes, I am modeling for LEED purposes.<br>
I'll look into A8.2. But at least, is my
method correct for the proposed
scenario?<br>
<br>
Brad: I think you need to enter the center
of glass u-value in the "Glass
Type", and then enter the frame properties
in the "Window"
properties...<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Omar</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<br>
Quoting Brad Robinson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brad.robinson@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">brad.robinson@yahoo.com</a>>:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black"><br>
<br>
Is the u-value listed for a
manufacturer and specific model on the
NRCAN
website centre of glass or overall
assembly? Many windows are custom
made
to suit so I am unclear if each
individual custom window would need to
be
tested.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In eQuest, when entering the window,
if the u-value represents the whole
window, including frame, do you need
to enter a frame width, conductance
etc as
well under the Window Frame section
under Window Properties? Thanks.<br>
<br>
<br>
Brad Robinson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Robby Oylear <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com"
target="_blank">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Omar Katanani <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>><br>
Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011
12:32:08 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] URGENT:
Window U-values: Total window assembly
v/s
Glass only<br>
<br>
<br>
Omar,<br>
<br>
The answer depends on the purpose of
your study. If you're trying to get
results for a client on the impact of
the glazing on their energy
performance,
this may be adequate. Make sure
you've entered in the framing
information
properly (metal vs. non-metal).<br>
<br>
I'd recommend opening up your
simulation output results file
(xxxx.SIM) and
going to the either the last page of
the LV-D report or sort through your
LV-E
report to see what value eQUEST has
calculated. Compare these values to
the ASHRAE Fundamentals results for
overall assembly values including
frame to
see how close you've come. I would
not blindly trust that eQUEST will
give you an appropriate overall
assembly value based on entering only
the
center of glass number.<br>
<br>
However, if this is for a LEED study,
this is not adequate. This an
excerpt from an e-mail I sent out
recently regarding LEED and NFRC
requirements.<br>
<br>
In order to meet LEED EAp2 Minimum
Energy Performance, the project must
comply
with all mandatory provisions of
ASHRAE 90.1-2007. Section 5.4.2
Fenestration and Doors requires that
fenestration performance be determined
per
section 5.8.2. Section 5.8.2.4
U-factor requires that the U-factor
for
the overall fenestration area
(including framing) be determined in
accordance
with NFRC 100. If you do not have NFRC
data available, values from section
A8.2
are the only acceptable alternative.<br>
<br>
Robby Oylear, LEED®AP BD+C<br>
Mechanical Project Engineer<br>
Energy Analyst<br>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New
Ro" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New\000D\000A
Ro";color:black">D206-788-4571
|C206-354-2721</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black"><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rushingco.com"
target="_blank">www.rushingco.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Omar
Katanani <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear all,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black"> <br>
I have a small question regarding
entering</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black">window
properties
to eQUEST:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black"> <br>
I have read a lot of emails in the
forum</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black">discussing NFRC
testing, LBNL Window 5 import, and
other topics that I haven?t<br>
paid attention to before.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black"> <br>
The way I modelled my windows is the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black">following:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black"> <br>
1. I have manufacturer?s
specifications listing the
glass U-values, not the total
assembly.<br>
2. In the ?Glass Types? (eQUEST
Detailed Mode), I
created glass types, and entered the
glass conductance, visible
transmittance,
SC, and emissivity from the
manufacturer?s details I have.<br>
3. When creating windows, I
specify which glass type
(from the ones I created in step 2),
in addition to the frame width and
conductance.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times
Ne" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times\000D\000A
Ne";color:black"><br>
<br>
I?m assuming that, given that I</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black">entered the
u-values for the glass only, and then
I entered information about<br>
the frame, then I need not worry about
any conversions in U-values, since<br>
eQUEST has all the necessary
information to calculate the
equivalent u-value of<br>
the whole pane + frame assembly,
right?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black"> <br>
I appreciate your feedback / comments</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black">today if
possible,
as this has become really urgent!</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times
Ne" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times\000D\000A
Ne";color:black"> <br>
Many thanks,<br>
Omar<br>
___________________________<br>
Omar Katanani<br>
Sustainable Design Engineer<br>
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a><br>
<br>
EcoConsulting (Lebanon)</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black">NahasBuilding,
4th
floor</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times
Ne" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times\000D\000A
Ne";color:black"><br>
4 St-Maron Street/ Georges Haddad
Avenue<br>
Postal Code: 2028 5806</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New";color:black">SAIFI</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Beirut</span></font>,
Lebanon<br>
Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B961%20%280%29%201%20971%20266"
target="_blank" value="+9611971266">+961
(0) 1 971 266</a><br>
Mobile: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B961%20%280%29%203%20045%20045"
target="_blank" value="+9613045045">+961
(0) 3 045 045</a><br>
<br>
EcoConsulting (UK) Ltd<br>
28 Marshalsea Road<br>
London, SE1 1HF<br>
Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29%20207%20939%200989"
target="_blank" value="+442079390989">+44
(0) 207 939 0989</a><br>
Fax: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29%20207%20939%200981"
target="_blank" value="+442079390981">+44
(0) 207 939 0981</a><br>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">www.ecoconsulting.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
color:black"><fieldset></fieldset>_______________________________________________</span></font></pre>
<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Equest-users mailing list</span></font></pre>
<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a></span></font></pre>
<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></span></font></pre>
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