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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Great thread-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>To answer Vikram’s question - When using WINDOW, you are slightly limited in the output file (for example, if I create an NFRC-type model to figure out U-value for a curtainwall system, I will need to simply the window to export it into a DOE-2 report format). When you do import a WINDOW Report for DOE-2 into eQUEST it does not load any frame information with it – it presents the COG glass performance. My process is to adjust the spacer type and frame width+conductance to make an object that matches what WINDOW tells me my window performance is.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I don’t model for LEED, so am less familiar with what is required for that – since I work for a window manufacturer I usually have access to all the data I need to determine frame-inclusive u-value and SHGCs, i.e. no need to rely on 90.1 defaults. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Since the conversation was about using NFRC data – let me ask this question: NFRC data for windows (curtainwall assemblies included) is for a “default” size. I believe for curtainwall a mulled unit is modeled at 2m x 2m (or 78.54” x 78.54”) – as shown below:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><img width=533 height=491 id="Picture_x0020_14" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CC4DF9.F0308990"></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is an example, but let’s say that the NFRC value is U-0.34. If your building has a smaller or larger window (which will change the glass-to-frame ratio) the U-value will be different. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Is it still appropriate to use the NFRC value in that case, where it is entered as a frame-inclusive U-factor and SHGC? I’m curious as to how others approach this issue when dealing with models for compliance.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Alex Krickx<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#262F13'>Alex Krickx, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray'>Building Energy Specialist<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Serious Energy, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>(t) 408.541.8124<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>akrickx@seriousenergy.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments may be confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient then you have received it in error and any review, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is prohibited and you are to notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete immediately this message and any attachments.</span></i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sami, Vikram<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29, 2011 1:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> Robby Oylear; Bill Talbert; Carol Gardner<br><b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Firstly – congratulations to all contributors – I think this is probably the first time (that I recall) that all of the posts on this list have been on a single thread. I couldn’t resist being a part of this so I’m going to add my 2 cents:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>90.1 baseline values & SHGC are assembly u-values so your frame needs to be calculated into this. To get the derated value – you could either use the handy little XL spreadsheet that comes with the install of eQUEST (under the data\window folder) called eQUEST-DOE2 Glass Library.xls. This gives you COG values <b><u>AND</u></b> glass+frame NFRC values. They have separate table where it is sorted by U-value and SHGC – I use it all the time (screenshot below). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><img width=1197 height=134 id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image004.png@01CC4DF9.8E155560"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So you can select your values in conjunction with the values below from the DOE2 help file to get what you need. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div align=center><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 style='border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td width=197 valign=top style='width:2.05in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;background:aqua;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'><b><br>Frame Type</b><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=146 valign=top style='width:109.8pt;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:none;background:aqua;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'><b>FRAME-CONDUCT (excludes OA film)</b><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=144 valign=top style='width:1.5in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:aqua;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'><b><br>U-value<sup>a</sup></b><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td width=197 valign=top style='width:2.05in;border-top:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-bottom:none;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thermally unbroken aluminum<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=146 valign=top style='width:109.8pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>3.037 (17.24)<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=144 valign=top style='width:1.5in;border:none;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>1.90 (10.79)<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td width=197 valign=top style='width:2.05in;border-top:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-bottom:none;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thermally broken aluminum<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=146 valign=top style='width:109.8pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>1.245 (7.07)<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=144 valign=top style='width:1.5in;border:none;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>1.00 (5.68)<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td width=197 valign=top style='width:2.05in;border-top:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-bottom:none;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>External flush glazed aluminum<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=146 valign=top style='width:109.8pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>0.812 (4.61)<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=144 valign=top style='width:1.5in;border:none;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>0.70 (3.97)<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td width=197 valign=top style='width:2.05in;border-top:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-bottom:none;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Wood with or without cladding<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=146 valign=top style='width:109.8pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>0.434 (2.46)<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=144 valign=top style='width:1.5in;border:none;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>0.40 (2.27)<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td width=197 valign=top style='width:2.05in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Vinyl<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=146 valign=top style='width:109.8pt;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>0.319 (1.81)<o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=144 valign=top style='width:1.5in;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center'>0.30 (1.70)<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr style='page-break-inside:avoid'><td width=487 colspan=3 valign=top style='width:365.4pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto'><sup>a</sup> U-value includes OA film at 15 mph [6.7 m/s] windspeed<br> FRAME-CONDUCT = [(U-value)<sup>-1</sup> - 0.197]<sup>-1</sup> Btu/ft2-F-h<br> FRAME-CONDUCT = [(U-value)<sup>-1</sup> - 0.035]<sup>-1</sup> W/m2-K<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#DCAA2C'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Alternately, you can select a COG value to match what you want, set your frame to zero and your spacer to UE-EQ-UC (this will give you a uniform COG conductance across the assembly).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am curious about LBNL window imports. When you set up your assembly in window – it includes frames, but you import it in as a glass type – should you zero out the frame (as in the second case) if you import from window? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#DCAA2C'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>Vikram Sami</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>, LEED AP BD+C<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>Sustainable Design Analyst<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>t: 404-443-7462 f: </span><span lang=ES style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>404.892.5823 </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> e: vikram.sami@perkinswill.com </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.perkinswill.com/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray;text-decoration:none'>www.perkinswill.com</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:3.0pt;text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>Perkins+Will.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#ADD425'>Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robby Oylear<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29, 2011 4:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bill Talbert; Carol Gardner<br><b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>From the 90.1 User's Manual pg 5-12:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"With Addendum 90.1ag (published <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>with Standard 90.1-2001) glazed wall <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>systems, including glass curtain walls used <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>on large buildings, storefront glazing <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>systems, and other similar products that <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>are assembled at the construction site, as <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>opposed to at the factory, must either be <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>rated using NFRC procedures or the <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>default U-factor, SHGC and VLT from <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Table A8.2. Since the performance values <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>in Table A8.1A are based on uncoated <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>clear glass in poorly performing metal <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>frame, they do not offer any credit for <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>low-e coatings, thermal break frames or <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>any other advanced feature. In general, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>values from Table A8.1A will not achieve <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>compliance with the fenestration <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>requirements. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The NFRC procedure for site-built <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>fenestration is described in NFRC 100. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The NFRC ratings are based on computer <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>simulations of various product options at <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>standard sizes. (For curtain walls, the <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>standard size specified is 2000 mm by <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2000 mm, or approximately 79 in. by 79 <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>in.) Multiple glass options can be included <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>in one simulation matrix. The entire <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>simulation matrix is then validated by a <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>single physical test at the standard size. If <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>the matrix for a product has previously <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>been validated, then a new glass option <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>can be added to the matrix by simulation <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>alone. Simulations and tests must be done <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>by an NFRC-accredited simulation and <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>test laboratories." <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Also, the LEED Reference Guide for Green Building Design and Construction, pg 275 specifically references Tables A8.1 and A8.2 or requires that the products be certified and labeled in accordance with NFRC. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Not seeing any statements that would allow the modeler to perform their own fenestration assembly performance calculations.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-Robby<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Bill Talbert <<a href="mailto:btalbert@aeieng.com">btalbert@aeieng.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Regarding Omar’s first question, I would also clarify that adding a frame to the baseline is probably not the correct approach unless you are adjusting the U-value to a center of glass value and accounting for the frame and edge effects such that the total fenestration performance is equal to the 90.1 prescribed value.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#548DD4'>‘They are silent about frames but I would use one, match the frame width of your proposed window. Use an Aluminum frame with no thermal break.’</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Baseline Table 5.5-1 through 5.5-8 specify ‘fenestration assembly’ values which include the effect of the frames and edge of glass. Modeling a frame in the Baseline will further degrade the overall fenestration U-value (unless your frame outperforms the glazing) and result in overestimating the savings relative to the fenestration performance. If you use the Table values for your window performance, frames shouldn’t be included. If you include a frame, you should create a 90.1 compliant product using WINDOW and use the appropriate frame and glazing performance values as eQuest inputs such that your overall frame and glazing performance matches the A90.1 Table value.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width=474 style='width:355.5pt'><tr><td width=167 valign=top style='width:125.25pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#660000;text-transform:uppercase'>Bill Talbert</span></b><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> </span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>PE, LEED® AP<br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#333333;text-transform:uppercase'>Sustainable</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=10 valign=top style='width:7.5pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=283 valign=top style='width:212.25pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#660000'>AEI</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> | AFFILIATED ENGINEERS, INC. <br>5802 Research Park Boulevard | Madison, WI 53719<br><br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#660000'>P: <a href="tel:608.441.6677" target="_blank">608.441.6677</a> | C: <a href="tel:608.234.3803" target="_blank">608.234.3803</a> | F: <a href="tel:608.238.2614" target="_blank">608.238.2614</a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> <br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#660000'><a href="mailto:btalbert@aeieng.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:#660000;text-decoration:none'>btalbert@aeieng.com</span></a> | <b><a href="http://www.aeieng.com/" target="_blank"><span style='color:#660000;text-decoration:none'>www.aeieng.com</span></a></b></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol Gardner<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 29, 2011 1:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> Robby Oylear</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p>This came off of the Window website:<o:p></o:p></p><p>WINDOW 6.3 is a publicly available computer program for calculating total window thermal performance indices (i.e. U-values, solar heat gain coefficients, shading coefficients, and visible transmittances). WINDOW 6.3 provides a versatile heat transfer analysis method consistent with the updated rating procedure developed by the National Fenestration Rating Council (NFRC) that is consistent with the ISO 15099 standard. The program can be used to design and develop new products, to assist educators in teaching heat transfer through windows, and to help public officials in developing building energy codes. <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Robby Oylear <<a href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com" target="_blank">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Carol,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I have to take exception to this:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>"As far as NFRC, your Solarban glass data is NFRC rated which should be good enough, I think. It's rare in commercial buildings to have a rating for the entire window."<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>From my first response: <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>In order to meet LEED EAp2 Minimum Energy Performance, the project must comply with all mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1-2007. Section 5.4.2 Fenestration and Doors requires that fenestration performance be determined per section 5.8.2. Section 5.8.2.4 U-factor requires that the U-factor for the overall fenestration area (including framing) be determined in accordance with NFRC 100. If you do not have NFRC data available, values from section A8.2 are the only acceptable alternative.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>NFRC values for the glazing alone not "good enough". This is exactly what the reviewer is trying to get at.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I'd hardly call NFRC certification rare. In the State of Washington NFRC certification has been required for all glazing assemblies for over 10 years. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>How do you justify certifying that your projects have met the mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1 without NFRC data?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:1.0pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a name="1317746f9272af25_13177255b63123b2__MailA"><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#632423'>Robby Oylear, LEED</span></b></a><b><sup><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#632423'>®</span></sup></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#632423'> AP BD+C</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Mechanical Project Engineer</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Energy Analyst</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%'><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#632423'>D</span></b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:black'><a href="tel:206-788-4571" target="_blank">206-788-4571</a> |</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#BFAB7F'> </span><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#632423'>C</span></b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#A50021'> </span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:black'><a href="tel:206-354-2721" target="_blank">206-354-2721</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%'><a href="http://www.rushingco.com/" target="_blank"><b><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#632423'>www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Carol Gardner <<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Omar Katanani <<a href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Thank you for your responses.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><ol start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt'>Are the NFRC testing and the values in table A8.2 used for the Baseline, Proposed, or both scenarios?</span><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></li></ol></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'>For the baseline windows, Appendix G gives the following instructions:<br>Fenestration<br>U-factors shall match the appropriate requirements in Tables 5.5-1 through<br>5.5-8. Fenestration SHGC shall match the appropriate requirements in Tables<br>5.5-1 through 5.5-8. <br>They are silent about frames but I would use one, match the frame width of your proposed window. Use an Aluminum frame with no thermal break.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.25in'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><ol start=2 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt'>Let’s say I do not have NFRC test results and decide to use the values in table A8.2. For a clear double glazed and metal frame type, I get an assembly U-factor of 5.1. How can I input this into eQUEST? As far as I know, I can enter the glass properties and the frame properties. Do I have to play with the glass properties and check the LV-D report for the calculated Assembly u-value?</span><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></li></ol></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>A U of 5.1 does not make sense. Are you sure this isn't R?<br> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Similarly, for the baseline, Tables 5.5-1 to 5.5-8 of ASHRAE 90.1 provide the assembly u-values for vertical glazing. How can I enter these values into eQUEST?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.25in'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><ol start=3 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo9'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt'>I am attaching the specs of the proposed glazing. These numbers are for the glass only (note that the u-values reported are NFRC ones). Additionally, I know that the frame will be aluminium. Do I still need NFRC U-values for the whole assembly, or is the NFRC usually for the glass only? If yes, how can I calculate the whole assembly U-value (given that eQUEST doesn’t have the ability to calculate this)</span><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></li></ol></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><span style='background:white'>For your proposed building I highly recommend you use LBNL's Window program. In it you can select your window type, e.g. casement, picture, etc,, select your glass from their glass library, which is huge and definitely includes Solarban, and then model your frame using whatever information the architect gives you related to thermal breaks and spacers. After you run your window in the program you can select to save it to a DOE 2 report which will automatically go into your DOE 2 Window folder. Then you just have to select it from the pull down menu.</span><br><br><span style='background:white'>Otherwise, input your glass values, as you are already, <u>and</u> input your frame data, the same data you got from your architect, and model it that way. When you look at your LV-D report you will likely see a variety of U values. That's because they will vary based on window size.due to the frame effect. You need to have a frame.</span><br><br><span style='background:white'>As far as NFRC, your Solarban glass data is NFRC rated which should be good enough, I think. It's rare in commercial buildings to have a rating for the entire window.</span><br><br><span style='background:white'>Carol</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Thanks for clarifying this, as my project is outside the US and we are not too familiar with standards such as NFRC.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Omar</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>___________________________</span><span lang=EN-GB style='color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Omar Katanani</span><span lang=EN-GB style='color:navy'><br></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Sustainable Design Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Email: <a href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>EcoConsulting (Lebanon)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>Nahas Building, 4<sup>th</sup> floor</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>4 St-Maron Street / Georges Haddad Avenue</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>Postal Code: 2028 5806 SAIFI</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>Beirut, Lebanon</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>Tel: </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'><a href="tel:%2B961%20%280%29%201%20971%20266" target="_blank">+961 (0) 1 971 266</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B961%20%280%29%203%20045%20045" target="_blank">+961 (0) 3 045 045</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>EcoConsulting (UK) Ltd<br>28 Marshalsea Road<br>London, SE1 1HF<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29%20207%20939%200989" target="_blank">+44 (0) 207 939 0989</a><br>Fax: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29%20207%20939%200981" target="_blank">+44 (0) 207 939 0981</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.5pt;color:navy'>Website: <a href="http://www.ecoconsulting.net/" target="_blank">www.ecoconsulting.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'> <img border=0 width=870 height=102 id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image005.jpg@01CC4DF9.8E155560"></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Robby Oylear [mailto:<a href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com" target="_blank">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 28 July 2011 00:53<br><b>To:</b> Omar Katanani<br><b>Cc:</b> Brad Robinson; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt'><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>Omar,</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>To directly answer your question:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>"</span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'>I’m assuming that, given that I entered the u-values for the glass only, and then I entered information about the frame, then I need not worry about any conversions in U-values, <u>since eQUEST has all the necessary information to calculate the equivalent u-value of the whole pane + frame assembly,</u>right?</span><span lang=EN-GB>"</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>No. Your method will result in an assembly U-value based on your input glass conductance and whatever default frame properties that the eQUEST wizard will use. I have never tried to let eQUEST determine an assembly value, as NFRC values are required for LEED and code compliance studies. I would not be surprised if the values eQUEST is calculating (shown in LV-D and LV-E reports like previously mentioned) are much different than what you'll actually see in the test results.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>Again, NFRC values are a LEED requirement, so unless you're just doing preliminary analysis for a client, you need to receive NFRC simulation reports or certified product directory numbers in accordance with NFRC 100.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:1.0pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#632423'>Robby Oylear, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP BD+C</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Mechanical Project Engineer</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Energy Analyst</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%'><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#632423'>D</span></b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.5pt;line-height:115%;color:black'><a href="tel:206-788-4571" target="_blank">206-788-4571</a> |</span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#BFAB7F'> </span><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#632423'>C</span></b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#A50021'> </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.5pt;line-height:115%;color:black'><a href="tel:206-354-2721" target="_blank">206-354-2721</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%'><span lang=EN-GB><a href="http://www.rushingco.com/" target="_blank"><b><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#632423'>www.rushingco.com</span></i></b></a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:44 PM, <<a href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>Dear Robby,<br><br>Yes, I am modeling for LEED purposes.<br>I'll look into A8.2. But at least, is my method correct for the proposed scenario?<br><br>Brad: I think you need to enter the center of glass u-value in the "Glass Type", and then enter the frame properties in the "Window" properties...<br><br>Best,<br>Omar</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-GB><br><br>Quoting Brad Robinson <<a href="mailto:brad.robinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank">brad.robinson@yahoo.com</a>>:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB><br><br>Is the u-value listed for a manufacturer and specific model on the NRCAN website centre of glass or overall assembly? Many windows are custom made to suit so I am unclear if each individual custom window would need to be tested.<br><br><br><br>In eQuest, when entering the window, if the u-value represents the whole window, including frame, do you need to enter a frame width, conductance etc as well under the Window Frame section under Window Properties? Thanks.<br><br><br>Brad Robinson<br><br><br><br>________________________________<br>From: Robby Oylear <<a href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com" target="_blank">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>><br>To: Omar Katanani <<a href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>><br>Cc: <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:32:08 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass only<br><br><br>Omar,<br><br>The answer depends on the purpose of your study. If you're trying to get results for a client on the impact of the glazing on their energy performance, this may be adequate. Make sure you've entered in the framing information properly (metal vs. non-metal).<br><br>I'd recommend opening up your simulation output results file (xxxx.SIM) and going to the either the last page of the LV-D report or sort through your LV-E report to see what value eQUEST has calculated. Compare these values to the ASHRAE Fundamentals results for overall assembly values including frame to see how close you've come. I would not blindly trust that eQUEST will give you an appropriate overall assembly value based on entering only the center of glass number.<br><br>However, if this is for a LEED study, this is not adequate. This an excerpt from an e-mail I sent out recently regarding LEED and NFRC requirements.<br><br>In order to meet LEED EAp2 Minimum Energy Performance, the project must comply with all mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1-2007. Section 5.4.2 Fenestration and Doors requires that fenestration performance be determined per section 5.8.2. Section 5.8.2.4 U-factor requires that the U-factor for the overall fenestration area (including framing) be determined in accordance with NFRC 100. If you do not have NFRC data available, values from section A8.2 are the only acceptable alternative.<br><br>Robby Oylear, LEED®AP BD+C<br>Mechanical Project Engineer<br>Energy Analyst<br> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>D206-788-4571 |C206-354-2721</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB><br><a href="http://www.rushingco.com" target="_blank">www.rushingco.com</a><br><br><br><br><br><br>On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Omar Katanani <<a href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>> wrote:<br><br>Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> <br>I have a small question regarding entering</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>window properties to eQUEST:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> <br>I have read a lot of emails in the forum</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>discussing NFRC testing, LBNL Window 5 import, and other topics that I haven?t<br>paid attention to before.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> <br>The way I modelled my windows is the</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>following:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> <br> 1. I have manufacturer?s specifications listing the glass U-values, not the total assembly.<br> 2. In the ?Glass Types? (eQUEST Detailed Mode), I created glass types, and entered the glass conductance, visible transmittance, SC, and emissivity from the manufacturer?s details I have.<br> 3. When creating windows, I specify which glass type (from the ones I created in step 2), in addition to the frame width and conductance.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB><br> <br>I?m assuming that, given that I</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>entered the u-values for the glass only, and then I entered information about<br>the frame, then I need not worry about any conversions in U-values, since<br>eQUEST has all the necessary information to calculate the equivalent u-value of<br>the whole pane + frame assembly, right?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> <br>I appreciate your feedback / comments</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>today if possible, as this has become really urgent!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB> <br>Many thanks,<br>Omar<br>___________________________<br>Omar Katanani<br>Sustainable Design Engineer<br>Email: <a href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a><br> <br>EcoConsulting (Lebanon)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB>NahasBuilding, 4th floor</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-GB><br>4 St-Maron Street/ Georges Haddad Avenue<br>Postal Code: 2028 5806</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal 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