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<font size="+1">Hi Omar,<br>
This is where LEED and eQuest can get complicated. As you are
outside the US the NFRC test results won't apply to you. This is
a US window test standard. Being from Canada we have CSA test
requirements for windows, we don't use NFRC. Basically you need
to use the base standard for your country for your baseline. LEED
Canada has adjusted the LEED documents in this area to reflect our
testing agency and what we consider a base window. Has the
country you are building in done the same?<br>
So to get you going I would assume a base window in eQuest for
the baseline. Use 6mm clear glass, 1/2" air space, 6mm glass,
metal spacer. Also pick a base frame as well, this would depend
on the type of building you are doing, so select a plain frame in
common use, if metal choose a frame without a thermal break. This
should be easy to defend on a LEED review. If there is a specific
country version of LEED for your location then you could adjust
for this later once you get the required information. For your
proposed you would build the window you are considering using the
window manufacturers specs. All manufacturers will not offer all
glass types. In the window industry there are the glass
manufacturers, they make the glass. Window manufacturers buy the
glass and make the frames. Now you can see the reasoning behind
the NFRC testing and testing the total window, glass and frame, it
is window manufacturer specific. But it does make a conflict with
eQuest and the way it was programmed and the way windows are
input. Realistically the frame it not going to make much
difference except if it is metal and there is a thermal break.
The glass being the overwhelming area of the window is going to
have the largest impact. This is what you want to be playing with
in eQuest, determining the cost effectiveness of different types
of glass and the payouts. As long as you operate from a realistic
baseline which is the current standard construction used in the
country of the build then you can evaluate your proposed glass
because you are looking at differential costs and savings. If
your baseline changes it won't make very much difference, you have
already been able to select your window, it will just effect the
payback period and it will be a minor difference. This does let
you get 98% of the window work done.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
</font><br>
On 28/07/2011 08:40 AM, Omar Katanani wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Dear all,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thank you for your
responses.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font face="Arial"
color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Are the NFRC
testing and the values in table A8.2 used for the
Baseline, Proposed, or both scenarios?</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><font
face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font face="Arial"
color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Let’s say I
do not have NFRC test results and decide to use the
values in table A8.2. For a clear double glazed and
metal frame type, I get an assembly U-factor of 5.1. How
can I input this into eQUEST? As far as I know, I can
enter the glass properties and the frame properties. Do
I have to play with the glass properties and check the
LV-D report for the calculated Assembly u-value?</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><font
face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Similarly,
for
the baseline, Tables 5.5-1 to 5.5-8 of ASHRAE 90.1 provide
the assembly
u-values for vertical glazing. How can I enter these
values into eQUEST?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><font
face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="3" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font face="Arial"
color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">I am
attaching the specs of the proposed glazing. These
numbers are for the glass only (note that the u-values
reported are NFRC ones). Additionally, I know that the
frame will be aluminium. Do I still need NFRC U-values
for the whole assembly, or is the NFRC usually for the
glass only? If yes, how can I calculate the whole
assembly U-value (given that eQUEST doesn’t have the
ability to calculate this)</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thanks for clarifying
this, as my project
is outside the US and we are not too familiar with
standards such as NFRC.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Best regards,</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Omar</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">___________________________</span></font><font
color="navy"><span style="color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Omar
Katanani</span></font><font color="navy"><span
style="color:navy"><br>
</span></font><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span
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href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a></span></font></p>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
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<hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="2" width="100%">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma" lang="EN-US">
Robby Oylear [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com">mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> 28
July 2011 00:53<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Omar
Katanani<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Brad
Robinson;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Equest-users]
URGENT: Window U-values: Total window assembly v/s Glass
only</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">Omar,</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">To directly answer your question:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">"</span></font><span class="apple-style-span"><font
face="Arial" color="navy" size="1"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">I’m assuming that, given that I entered
the u-values for the
glass only, and then I entered information about the
frame, then I need not
worry about any conversions in U-values, <u>since
eQUEST has all the
necessary information to calculate the equivalent
u-value of the whole pane +
frame assembly,</u>right?</span></font></span>"</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">No. Your method will result in an assembly
U-value based on your
input glass conductance and whatever default frame
properties that the eQUEST
wizard will use. I have never tried to let eQUEST
determine an assembly
value, as NFRC values are required for LEED and code
compliance studies.
I would not be surprised if the values eQUEST is
calculating (shown in
LV-D and LV-E reports like previously mentioned) are
much different than what
you'll actually see in the test results.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">Again, NFRC values are a LEED requirement, so
unless you're just doing
preliminary analysis for a client, you need to receive
NFRC simulation reports
or certified product directory numbers in accordance
with NFRC 100.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:1.0pt"><b><span
style="mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast"><font
face="Verdana" color="#632423" size="2"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Verdana;color:#632423;font-weight:bold">Robby
Oylear, LEED</span><sup>®</sup><span
style="mso-fareast-theme-font:
minor-fareast"> AP BD+C</span></font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast"><font
face="Verdana" color="black" size="1"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
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style="font-size:
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</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:44 PM, <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">Dear Robby,<br>
<br>
Yes, I am modeling for LEED purposes.<br>
I'll look into A8.2. But at least, is my method
correct for the proposed
scenario?<br>
<br>
Brad: I think you need to enter the center of glass
u-value in the "Glass
Type", and then enter the frame properties in the
"Window"
properties...<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Omar</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
Quoting Brad Robinson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brad.robinson@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">brad.robinson@yahoo.com</a>>:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
<br>
Is the u-value listed for a manufacturer and
specific model on the NRCAN
website centre of glass or overall assembly? Many
windows are custom made
to suit so I am unclear if each individual custom
window would need to be
tested.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In eQuest, when entering the window, if the
u-value represents the whole
window, including frame, do you need to enter a
frame width, conductance etc as
well under the Window Frame section under Window
Properties? Thanks.<br>
<br>
<br>
Brad Robinson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Robby Oylear <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robbyoylear@gmail.com"
target="_blank">robbyoylear@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Omar Katanani <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>><br>
Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 12:32:08 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] URGENT: Window
U-values: Total window assembly v/s
Glass only<br>
<br>
<br>
Omar,<br>
<br>
The answer depends on the purpose of your study.
If you're trying to get
results for a client on the impact of the glazing
on their energy performance,
this may be adequate. Make sure you've entered in
the framing information
properly (metal vs. non-metal).<br>
<br>
I'd recommend opening up your simulation output
results file (xxxx.SIM) and
going to the either the last page of the LV-D
report or sort through your LV-E
report to see what value eQUEST has calculated.
Compare these values to the
ASHRAE Fundamentals results for overall assembly
values including frame to see
how close you've come. I would not blindly trust
that eQUEST will give
you an appropriate overall assembly value based on
entering only the center of
glass number.<br>
<br>
However, if this is for a LEED study, this is not
adequate. This an
excerpt from an e-mail I sent out recently
regarding LEED and NFRC
requirements.<br>
<br>
In order to meet LEED EAp2 Minimum Energy
Performance, the project must comply
with all mandatory provisions of ASHRAE 90.1-2007.
Section 5.4.2
Fenestration and Doors requires that fenestration
performance be determined per
section 5.8.2. Section 5.8.2.4 U-factor requires
that the U-factor for
the overall fenestration area (including framing)
be determined in accordance
with NFRC 100. If you do not have NFRC data
available, values from section A8.2
are the only acceptable alternative.<br>
<br>
Robby Oylear, LEED®AP BD+C<br>
Mechanical Project Engineer<br>
Energy Analyst<br>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt">D206-788-4571 |C206-354-2721</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rushingco.com" target="_blank">www.rushingco.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Omar Katanani
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear all,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <br>
I have a small question regarding entering</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">window properties to eQUEST:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <br>
I have read a lot of emails in the forum</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">discussing NFRC testing, LBNL Window 5
import, and other topics that I
haven?t<br>
paid attention to before.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <br>
The way I modelled my windows is the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">following:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <br>
1. I have manufacturer?s specifications
listing the
glass U-values, not the total assembly.<br>
2. In the ?Glass Types? (eQUEST Detailed
Mode), I
created glass types, and entered the glass
conductance, visible transmittance,
SC, and emissivity from the manufacturer?s details
I have.<br>
3. When creating windows, I specify which
glass type
(from the ones I created in step 2), in addition
to the frame width and
conductance.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
<br>
I?m assuming that, given that I</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">entered the u-values for the glass only,
and then I entered information
about<br>
the frame, then I need not worry about any
conversions in U-values, since<br>
eQUEST has all the necessary information to
calculate the equivalent u-value of<br>
the whole pane + frame assembly, right?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <br>
I appreciate your feedback / comments</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">today if possible, as this has become
really urgent!</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> <br>
Many thanks,<br>
Omar<br>
___________________________<br>
Omar Katanani<br>
Sustainable Design Engineer<br>
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:omar@ecoconsulting.net"
target="_blank">omar@ecoconsulting.net</a><br>
<br>
EcoConsulting (Lebanon)</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">NahasBuilding, 4th floor</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
4 St-Maron Street/ Georges Haddad Avenue<br>
Postal Code: 2028 5806</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">SAIFI</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">Beirut</span></font>,
Lebanon<br>
Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B961%20%280%29%201%20971%20266"
target="_blank" value="+9611971266">+961
(0) 1 971 266</a><br>
Mobile: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B961%20%280%29%203%20045%20045"
target="_blank" value="+9613045045">+961 (0) 3 045
045</a><br>
<br>
EcoConsulting (UK) Ltd<br>
28 Marshalsea Road<br>
London, SE1 1HF<br>
Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29%20207%20939%200989"
target="_blank" value="+442079390989">+44 (0) 207
939 0989</a><br>
Fax: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29%20207%20939%200981"
target="_blank" value="+442079390981">+44 (0) 207
939 0981</a><br>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ecoconsulting.net" target="_blank">www.ecoconsulting.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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